You drew a parallel you believed was more favorable. If we can make conclusions about Muslims based on what happens in Egypt or Iran, why can’t we draw conclusions about U.S. Christians based on the fact that large numbers of people continued to vote for ardent segregationists and that segregationist policies were enacted until fairly recently?
He was, yes, and that would not happen in the U.S. Very insightful. The thing is, this was not a choice between the Republicans and Democrats and Morsi. He wasn’t elected because people loved his views on the Holocaust. They elected him because the Brotherhood was organized and has a history and the country’s first election was a mess.
I though this thread was In My Humble Opinion (IMHO) and not GREAT DEBATES…
Some of the pro- Muslim posts have or make a lot of sense IMO.
Some do not IMO.
But my opinions are not from media as I said, they all are slanted, each & every one. I am not there on the ground. If I was, I would be wondering where all the rest of the people who talk tough and give reasons are not here with me fighting?
Any posters in this thread who have, rifle in hand, been or is a member of a group fighting on either side of this conflict?
Over here, vets do not much pay any attention to non vets about what the vets actually did or did not do.
All the posts, opinions, all the media do not counter even just one or two of the details & information of first person fighters in the conflict.
I did my bit in the Military, got shot at once or three times. What say all in this thread, pro or con? Where & what are basing you opinions on?
If you believe any history book, I agree that I have a bridge in New York also that needs a buyer…
I’m neither Christian nor Muslim, nor living in the region. And you? I haven’t much of an inkling to get involved in others affairs if they can’t solve the problem themselves. If a radical conflict ever hits closer to home, that’s as good a time as any to start getting involved especially if I feel like my life and those closest to me have their lives in jeopardy as well.
Numbers sound about right to me. I see estimates of anywhere from 700 million all the way up to 1.9 billion that claim to be moderate Muslims. Let’s round off your figure to 1.5 billion and go with that, seems reasonable enough.
For ISIS, I see estimates of just a few thousand to now it possibly being around 6-10,000 soldiers. Even if you took 1% of the moderate Muslims in the general area (using your estimate), that’s roughly 3.2 million soldiers that could be armed to take on ISIS and other radical groups which still doesn’t seem to be near as number strong as ISIS. And this is saying nothing of the financial support and backing that many moderate Muslims world-wide could be contributing too, or at least those in the general region if that many don’t want this conflict to get any closer to their own homeland.
Evidently this isn’t being done on a large enough scale. Maybe the radical Muslims in the region may be higher than estimates previously thought, or at least the moderate Muslims that identify as such still may be sympathizing and supporting a particular radical group. If so, they shouldn’t be calling themselves moderate. There are obviously many groups involved, and many things to consider. But still, if they are as many moderate Muslims as we hear are in the region, let them arise against the terrorists groups if their hearts are truly in it. If they don’t, and that also includes the moderate Muslims in surrounding countries, then they will have to live or die with the consequences of their decision especially if ISIS succeeds, and then starts having their eyes on their homeland next.
What you’re looking at is the difference between fanatics and the rest of the world. Regular people want to be safe and healthy and fed and for their families to be taken care of. Fanatics are willing to kill people (sometimes in other countries) over obscure religious doctrines. If Iraq had a functional army, this wouldn’t be so hard to take care of. Unfortunately its government is not only a mess, it’s been active in disenfranchising a big part of the population.
Yes, I understand and agree. And with as much conflict in the ME, it’s frustrating to always see it like this, when I have no doubt too, that many Muslims want just that, peace, and to go home to their families and just live ordinary lives. The radicals no matter how small their number don’t really allow voices of dissension, they get killed off too easily if anyone becomes too popular.
Your chances of being killed by a terrorist are less than being struck by lightning or hit by a falling tree. More Americans were accidentally shot by toddlers last year than killed by terrorists. And that’s not even getting into causes of death that are statistically significant enough that they might be worth giving passing consideration to in your day to day life.
Obviously fears aren’t always rational, but if you live in a big city and you have a snake phobia, most people would probably agree that the problem isn’t the snakes.
Is there a reason you picked 1%? Or did it just sound like a small number?
The US Armed Forces has about 1.4 million people serving on active duty, drawn from a population of around 320 million - that’s about 0.4% of the population. And that’s a well-organized, well-funded where (a) you’re unlikely to be engaged in actual combat, and (b) even if you are in combat, you’re likely to be part of a force that’s vastly superior to whoever you’re fighting. You can make a good, relatively safe living in the US military, and it still draws less than half the proportion you’re expecting to see from middle eastern Muslims.
You’re also being pretty unrealistic in expecting someone from, say, Tunisia, to up up and travel to Iraq in order to… what? What would he have to gain from that? Instead of the 317 million Muslims in MENA, you should probably be looking at the ~50 million in Iraq and Syria. What fraction of those people do you expect to volunteer to resist an armed force with minimal (if any) weapons, training, and support?
Your expectations are nuts. I’m a moderate Nevadan, and I didn’t go resist Cliven Bundy in Bunkerville, even though my local, state, and federal governments all failed to take care of the problem. He and his militia were better armed than I am (which is to say, he and his militia were armed), and I didn’t want to get shot. Why would Muslims think any differently?
Cany you come with me to the airport and explain this to the TSA?
What we’ve done in America in response to 9/11 is pretty sad. Recent revelations about the NSA’s monitoring is incredible. All in pursuit of that [DEL]needle [/DEL] terrorist in a haystack.
So what are you and your church doing about the Lord’s Resistance Army in Uganda? What did you do when Catholics and Protestants were merrily killing each other in Northern Ireland? Did you go to Waco to tell David Koresh that he was a very naughty boy?
I was referring to local homegrown terrorists. People that get radicalized at a local mosque or through propaganda posted on the Internet. The local leaders in the Mosques have a duty to reach out to these kids and try to limit the influence of the radicals. I would hope Christian churches would do the same if there was a radical local Church preaching hate. My Church’s ministry already has people reaching out to drug addicts and the homeless. Volunteers work at several local homeless shelters. Making meals and trying to help.
There’s a good book coming out Agent Storm: My Life Inside al Qaeda and the CIA. Excerpts are already on the Internet. It was written by 2 of CNN’s reporters and Morten Storm. Storm was a former biker and criminal. He converted into Islam and spent years with the radical groups in England. These people are known within the local community long before they take the next step of training and then fighting. Storm eventually had seconded thoughts and started working with the cops.
I know ISIS is different. A lot of their members are disenfranchised Sunnis. There’s also some fanatical foreign fighters and radicals from Syria.
I figured they would need more active military personal in that region since they don’t have near the military firepower we have in America. I looked at Iraq’s population (about 35 million) and their active military personal (271,400), so 1% is closer than the 0.4% figure you want to go with. At least that’s what Iraq’s military size was recently before they started to scatter.
But let’s go with the 0.4% figure then for active personnel and even set aside the reserves as well, I’m flexible. Going with the 0.4% figure, that still gives you well over a million potential fighters in that region using your estimate of 317 million. Any neighboring country (some oil rich) should at least have a vested interest in getting involved unless they want ISIS coming to a region near them next.
Next you say, we still can’t expect certain regions to want to get involved. If you still want to reduce it further and just go with Iraq and Syria with a number of 50 million you give, 0.4% of that is still 200,000 fighters. Is this still being unreasonable, or do the 6-10,000 ISIS fighters far outweigh the will of the moderate Muslims and can whup all of them?
Because you didn’t have to. Don’t recall civilians feeling like their lives were in danger of Bundy, but my interest wasn’t strong enough to follow it that much. Still don’t think any were killed. And seriously, he really wasn’t much of a threat and it’s a laughable comparison on many fronts to compare him to the ME situation. Cliven Bundy and yokels wasn’t going to be no match for the US military. Nor was it a job where civilians needed to get involved with to fight him. And I imagine Bundy hasn’t heard the last of the US gov’t and them collecting the grazing fees they think owed.
Eventually at some point, if the military in Iraq has decided they really aren’t up for it, and neighboring countries are not sympathizing with them enough to get any more involved, civilians only choices left seem to be to stay and fight, leave the country, or surrender to ISIS and accept the inevitable.
It seems one of the biggest problems is actually finding a moderate Muslim voice that can inspire the Muslims enough to want to get behind, and most qualified probably really don’t want the job considering so many radicals wanting to kill them.
Bashar al-Assad is a moderate Muslim. He is actively fighting ISIS in Syria.
Massoud Barzani, the president of Iraqi Kurdistan, is a moderate Muslim. He is against ISIS, but wisely concentrates on keeping the borders of his own soon-to-be-country safe.
King Abdullah II of Jordan is a moderate Muslim. He is against ISIS, but, like Barzani, wisely concentrates on keeping the borders of his own country safe.
“I don’t want those nasty people here.” That’s what a good christian lady said to me yesterday in reference to the women and children refugees gathering at our border.
Should I judge all christians by the disgusting attitude of this one?
What we’ve done in America in response to 9/11 is pretty sad. Recent revelations about the NSA’s monitoring is incredible. All in pursuit of that [DEL]needle [/DEL] terrorist in a haystack.