I just figured out what was wrong with Star Wars: The Last Jedi

Well, of course they are. The secret orders of wizards always have to give up mundane things to attain cosmic understanding. It’s a trope that goes back so far it predates the invention of writing. But for some strange reason everybody keeps trying to fit Star Wars into a perpetually-ironic post-modern culture mold where everything is taken a little self-conscious; it was pretty strongly embedded in mythic storytelling from the beginning.

From a basic story perspective, the movie has two cardinal sins. I say two because there are two more-or-less disconnected plot lines. Fundamentally, there’s no story reason why the Luke/Rey/Kylo story needs to overlap with the Poe/Finn/Hux story, and it shows.

The Rey problem is that she’s the single least interesting character in the series, and maybe the least interesting main character in the entire movie series. She’s emotionally flat, blatantly can’t do passable movie fighting but wins through the power of bad writing, and winds up checking off the entire Mary Sue list by the end. Just to top it off, the movie manages to include a scene where she creates her own existence is the literary sense. perhaps worst of all, she’s still narratively void and is basically only useful as a foil so Kylo Ren can be fun. She literally adds nothing whatsoever in either of the two movies she’s in.

Don’t believe me? Stop for a moment and imagine she was just removed entirely. Nothing needs to be changed. Every single thing of interest was done by someone else. Finn is the one with the drive to escape the random sand planet and flies off. Poe leads to charge to destroy the Death-Star-knockoff. Han has the clever plan to get inside. Then, in the new one, ultimately Rey doesn’t do anything and even fails to convince Luke to help. Kylo Ren kills Snoke. Poe and Finn battle the First Order. She does less to further the plot than BB-8.

Anyway, it’s not her parentage that’s the issue, but rather than the movie can’t actually allow vulnerability to actually be a worthwhile character flaw. It in no way informs her actions* or represents anything for her to overcome (literally appearing for ne scene in each movie and then being ignored). This is contrast to Luke, whose implicit hero-worship of his mysterious father was a background element which caused him to try living up to his father’s supposed heroism, and made him emotionally vulnerable to having his illusions broken. He received a difficult lesson during his own experience in the Dark Side cave, one which he presumably didn’t understand until Return of the Jedi, when he finally outgrew the flaw while representing the basic virtue in a more mature way.

*To clarify, some would argue that it was holding her back in the Force Awakens, except it wasn’t. Sure, there wasn’t anything on the desert rock keeping her there, but she also had no motivation to leave, no destination in mind, and nothing to propel her forward.

The flipside is the other half of that plot with all the rebel guys. The upside is that ther are no boring characters in this half of the plot (frankly, this should have been the entire movie). THe downside is that essentially nothing happens in this entire stretch of film. The stakes are ostensibly high, but the problem is that the filmmakers failed to give us any context. But that’s a whole series of posts to go over the bad writing there and I don’t want to spend the time.

I’m reading these with detached interest because I’m not a huge fan - OK, not a fan at all - but anyway, from what’s been said, it sounds to me as if the back story is lacking AND so is the “front story” if it can be called that. There are so many characters jumping all over the place, and not nearly enough of a unifying theme or plot. It sounds like the writers and directors are like a little kid with a hundred toys who forces himself to play with each and every one of them before lunch time - having lots of toys is nice in theory, but it’s no fun forcing yourself to play just because you have them.

No, it’s not clear who is actually “running” the Galaxy. Star Wars made it very clear in the first five minutes that the Galaxy was in a Civil War and that the Empire was mostly in charge. There were dissenting star systems and ignored backwaters, but the Empire was, for all intents and purposes, the Galactic government.

Presumably the entire Galaxy did not just cheer and the downfall of the Empire. Obviously, it splintered into various factions vying for control, the First Order and New Republic being two of the main ones. But the story gives no sense as to the size and relationship of these factions?

Are they in open warfare or just an uneasy cold war?

Why is the entire New Republic fleet centered around a handful of planets that can be blow’d up instead of out patrolling the galaxy?

How did the First Order build Starkiller base without anyone knowing about it?

Was is the nature of the First Order anyway? Their Imperial influenced uniforms and equipment make them appear to be a well funded military. But they act more like a cult or a cartoonish “bad guy with a space ship” warlord one might find in an old 70s Star Wars knock off.

This is also true. At no point in theses films do we ever have all the characters together in one place. Poe and Ray didn’t even meet until the end of TLJ.

Random question - I put this out there before, but why does “Captain” Phasma get to wear bespoke silver armor? Captain isn’t a particularly high military rank, all the other officers wear the black Gestapo uniforms and I don’t see any other stormtroopers in custom gear.

Maybe it’s a naval rank? A captain in the navy is the equivalent of an army colonel, one step short of being a general.

It was just plain boring. Better than the first trilogy, but the worst main sequence film (and better than the useless Rogue One).

The story was next to non-existent and the plot was predictable; hence, no suspense or excitement. None of the character arcs showed anything. The Laura Dern character wasted her talent; it wasn’t cardboard, it was tissue paper. The story depended on wild coincidences (There’s only one person in the universe who can do this, but we can be arrested and put into a cell with someone else who also can do it). It gave up any sort of logic just to show cool images.

A Mary Sue is an author insert character who comes and resolves all the problems for everyone else, while having no non-superficial flaws. She is basically a walking deus ex machina. I don’t have anything to say about Star Wars, but it bugs me how that term is misused.]

It’s like plothole, which refers to a full on impossibility, not something that seems a bit off.

Heh–for real.

The Last Jedi remains my favorite of all the Star Wars movies ever made. None of the criticisms of it detract from the sheer joy I took in watching it.

Whenever you notice something like that, [del]a wizard[/del] the force did it.

No, he’s got a point. Lesser storytellers like Rian Johnson rely in plot-driven coincidences for their stories. Greater authors like Shakespeare and Dickens would never stoop so low.

The Rey/Luke/Kylo Ren/Snoke stuff was phenomenally good. Outstanding, in fact. I can take or leave most of the rest.

You kind of answered your own question there… Sure, there aren’t many resistance members left, but they dealt some horrific damage to the First Order on their way out. And, they’re continuing to inspire the next generation of rebels, starting with that little kid at the very end of the movie.

The Millennium Falcon was one of the few characters the movie got right. The last Jedi was a hot mess, with lousy acting, some roll eyes moments, and a burning down the house they built type of theme.

Am I the only one who thought the Kylo-Luke fight was super clever? I subscribe quite firmly to the Plinkett school of thought on lightsaber fights - they only matter because of what they represent, and all the flashy wire-fu and dual-wielding in the world can’t make up for the brilliant character moment that is Luke just bashing at Vader at the end of Return of the Jedi. So Luke having to carefully avoid getting hit while refusing to fight back because he’s not actually there is a genius turn that perfectly matches the wisdom of Luke against the hot-headed terror of Kylo Ren.

That said everything about that gambling planet was pretty awful. So meh.

I’ve been pretty down on TLJ since I saw it, and it’s become incredibly frustrating to be unable to discuss its flaws against the backdrop of all of the toxic fandom going on. So for that, I very much appreciate the OP. My gripes pretty much amount to 2 things:

  1. I don’t care for deconstruction in my escapism. I recognize that it’s my personal preference, but it’s the same issue I have with the DCEU. If you want to deconstruct Superman, make Hancock or Watchmen, don’t screw with Superman. Same issue here- if you want to deconstruct the heroes of the OT, then create your own universe, make that their fall the central conceit, and tell your story.
  2. I don’t think Johnson is a terribly clever filmmaker. He simply made the decision to subvert the audience expectation every. single. time. Every single plot threat set up in TFA was met with a very unsatisfying answer. We were literally told that ‘none of that matters.’ Well, great. If it doesn’t matter, don’t expect me to care, and don’t expect me to pay for it. I’m not a masochist.

And, to be fair, neither of these are as bad a sin as Abrams committed by setting up all of these hooks, but neglecting to actually show us the changed galaxy we were being dropped into. I found myself longing for trade disputes, blockades, and senate votes again.

I totally agree.

Doesn’t Luke’s entire role in this film kind of answer that question? It’s like he finally realized that an order of smug, stiff jerks (who stand off from others and are taught that they’re superior beings anointed to “control” this mystical, all-enveloping force) has a lot to do with why they always seem to create at least one new Hitler every generation.

His whole point is that the Jedi believing they “own” the Force (and own anyone force-sensitive) is not only arrogant BS, it’s also been the root cause of most of the wars in the galaxy.

I adored the movie. My 2nd favorite after ESB (and I’ve been a superfan since I saw ROTJ in the theater as a little kid). Considering where TFA left Luke – having voluntarily exiled himself for 30 years including during and after the violent deaths of billions of innocents – a totally demoralized Luke is about the only explanation that makes sense for the character. And Kylo is the most complicated and interesting SW villain ever – not as iconic or intimidating as Vader, but amazing acting and characterization. I was mesmerized by every Adam Driver scene.

The casino planet scene was the only misstep, IMO. Everything else was great.

I’m a big fan of coincidences, but they have to be set up properly. In this case, being put into the cell with the only other guy who could do what they needed (even when it was specifically said there was no other guy) is just a deus ex machina.

It didn’t help that the fight scenes bored the hell out of me, but most fight scenes do.

I for one am looking forward to Johnson’s plan 9 in outer space.

IMHO, TLJ was better than the prequels because it was merely forgettable. (I mean that literally: I’ve forgotten most of it already.)

As TBG said upthread, you’ve got the problem that the Resistance/Rebellion/whatever is so decimated by the end of the movie that you could fit them in the Millennium Falcon. It’s not believable that the remnants of the Rebellion could take on the First Order in Ep 9 and win. So where does the series go from here? It felt like a dead end, plotwise: you’d have to grow a whole new Resistance for Ep 9. And why should I care about that hypothetical future Resistance? I know nothing about it. ETA: It would be less a continuation/conclusion of the third trilogy than a stand-alone movie that included a few of the remaining characters introduced in Eps 7 and 8.