I’ll second the suggestion for a visit to the Sixth Floor Museum. I was there not more than 2 weeks ago and it provides a fairly objective account of what happened leading up to the assassination and then it branches off into the he-said/she-said stuff of Warren Commission vs. Conspiracy Theorists. Very informative and only $9 with your student ID, kids! Get the audio tour!
Well, we could try to name the ones implicated by the various conspiracy theories. Large segments of the CIA, the Johnson administration, the Warren Commission, the Dallas PD, folks to fake photographs, fake movies(!), fake palmprints on guns, switch bodies for autopsies, it goes on and on. Maybe not every one of these is required for every conspiracy theory, but most are, and I can’t imagine pulling something like this off with less than 1000 people. Getting them to keep quiet about it is another matter entirely.
Only from credible sources, sorry. See http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/wound3.txt . Here’s a quote: “Next, we compressed a bullet like Warren Commission Exhibit 399 sideways in a special vice until its configuration was as close as possible to that of bullet 399. This required great force because of the high structural density of these bullets, but it did cause the softer lead from the center of the bullet to be extruded from the open rear of the encompassing jacket (which was made of a tougher, copper-colored gilding metal) much as toothpaste is extruded from a tube. The extruded leaden metal was then sliced off flushwith the base of the bullet and the cylindrical fragmentweighed. It was found to weigh exactly 2.1 grains, almost precisely the same as the weight of lead estimated to be missing from the base of bullet 399. The extruded cylinder of lead weighing 2.1 grains was first placed on one of our test wrists in the same location as the large fragment seen on the X-rays of Connally’s wrist. Three additional particles the same size as the other particles in Connally were then removed from the extruded cylinder and arranged in the same configuration as those seen on his X- rays of the wrist and thigh, and pictures were taken for comparison. The density of the materials was the same as from a bullet like 399. It was seen that the largest fragment from our test bullet was slightly larger than the largest fragment in Connally.”
Maybe, but the shot would have had to go past other people in the area, and no one there thought that shots were fired from what would have been just a few feet away.
They have been identified, when Dallas released its records in 1989. And if someone were behind the fence, wouldn’t these bums have seen him?
She must have changed her mind, because she initially told the police, and she testified, that she herself took those pictures.
Completely unsubstantiated? Holy cow! We’ve got eyewitness testimony (Marina), physical evidence (the bullet itself, and photos of Walker’s house in Marina’s possession), and circumstantial evidence (the incriminating note Lee left for Marina). If I were on a jury, this would certainly be enough for me to reach a guilty verdict.
God, WHY do people continue to parrot this nonsense?
Look, Susanann, I have fired many rifles, some with scopes and some without, at targets both moving and stationary. I am telling you as an Army-qualified sharpshooter that Oswald’s shot was as easy as pie. Less than 100 yards at a target with virtually no deflection is a very, very easy shot. You’d have to be nervous or a bad shot to even miss once - which Oswald did. Remember, he didn’t hit with three shots, he hit with only two - a mediocre performance. I would imagine that anyone with rudimentary marksmanship skills would be able to hit Kennedy at least once; a skilled rifleman should have hit him every time.
Furthermore, what’s really stupid about this is that the shot from the “Grassy knoll” was a much WORSE shot. It’s just too damned close; the closest point on the knoll is like 15 feet from where Abraham Zapruder was standing. There is absolutely no logical reason whatsoever why an assasin with a rifle would be that close. You could take a more secure position behind the fence towards the end of Elm, but that shot isn’t any better than the SBD - actually, since it has more deflection, it’s worse.
I have to tell you; if I was set to kill Kennedy that day and wanted to escape (thereby ruling out actually running up to the car with a machine gun) I think I’d probably shoot him from either the Texas Schoolbook Depository of, if I had a good weapon I’d already zeroed and practiced with, the building across from the SBD on the other side of Houston St. I would not have chosen the grassy knoll; it’s either right on top of the crowd or had too much angle. Oswald was in the perfect spot.
Except that he wasn’t moving away at an angle. He was moving DIRECTLY away; Elm St. leads away from Oswald’s position, and at the point Kennedy took the fatal bullet, almost directly away. And at extremely low speed, at extremely close range. There is essentially no lead on such a shot. If the car had been moving at a good rate of speed or if it had been 300 yards away you’d have a point, but neither is true. At that distance and speed Kennedy may as well have been sitting still.
I guess it doesn’t bother you that all those things are urban legends.
Well, I’d say it is likely seeing as how Oswald WAS on the sixth floor, and he did fire three shots, and Kennedy was hit twice by someone shooting from Oswald’s location.
I have a few questions:
-that dude with the umbrella (seen in the Zapruder film)-he was protesting Kennedie’s decision not to back the Bay of Pigs invasion of Cuba-was he questioned by the Dallas police?
-those bums rounded up in the Dallas railroad yards-were any of them ever found to be on the CIA payroll?
Finally, did Jack Ruby ever reveal who his Mafia boss was ?
Not that I am aware of. He remained unidentified for many years.
Of course not, for a very simple reason: They were just three tramps on a freight car.
Jack Ruby did not have a “Mafia boss.” Though he certainly associated with some sleazy people and was quite shady himself (the guy operated a strip club, after all), there is no convincing evidence that he was actually a member of the mob. http://www.jfk-online.com//rubydef.html
One of the three tramps was Woody Harrelson (of Cheers) father. He is doing life in a Federal Pen for conspiring to kill a Federal judge. I would say that Oswald did it, because no one else would really profit from his death except for LBJ. Castro would not want him dead, do you think he wanted to deal with LBJ, or (egad!) Barry Goldwater? The Russians would not profit from his death, the mafia/CIA would rather of seen Castro dead than JFK. Really, except for Dan Quayle, all recent VPs were competent individuals. A dead President does not bring a lot of regime change, but it affects a country greatly.
JFK would of died a middle aged man anyway, might have lived until 60-65 (1977-1982) if he would have lived. The man had Addison’s disease, arthritis plus a host of other bad ailments (which is described in the book “An Unfinished life”, a new book about JFK) JFK was a pill popper too, no better than Rush Limbaugh today.
The guy was a train wreck and was not a great President. He and his people kept his illnesses away from the public. He was probably the sickest president since Woodrow Wilson and FDR in 44-45. But his assisination traumatized the nation and a generation
Sigh. You can find “spooky connections” all over the place if you just look.
Suppose I went nuts and tried to assassinate some public figure. What “spooky connections” could a conspiracy theorist find in my life?
Spooky connection #1: Back in the '70’s I briefly subscribed to * The Militant, * the Socialist Worker’s Party weeky newspaper, attended some of the party’s public meetings and even considered actually joining. I have also in recent years visited not only their website but the website of the CPUSA.
Spooky connection #2: Sometime in the early '90’s I briefly subscribed to * The Southern Partisan, * the leading neo-Confederate magazine. I have also visited neo-Confederate websites.
Spooky connection #3: Because of my interest in mysticism and occultism I have on different occasions associated with two Crowleyists, several Wiccans and have communicated via a local BBS with a Satanist. Again, I have visited numerous pagan websites. I have a fairly large collection of pagan magazines and a couple of hundred books on the subjects of occultism and mysticism.
Spooky connection #4: Back in the '80’s, I bought a pickup truck from a friend. Turns out the friend borrowed the money to buy the truck from a guy known to have underworld connection, and my friend needed the money from the sale of the truck to pay off the debt.
So there you have it, lots of grist for the conspiracy mill there. Connections with two fringe political movements, a connection to “devil worship,” and a connection to organized crime. Granted, I’ve had a somewhat unusual life, but basically I’m your average Joe Sixpack type. If I were loony enough to take a potshot at the President, the conspiracy buffs could really have a field day finding “spooky connections” with all sorts of vague, shadowy conspiracies. If you’ll take a look at your own life, you could probably find a few things that a determined conspiracy theorist could turn into a “spooky connection,” too. If you exempt yourself from having to produce any actual hard evidence, you can find “spooky connections” everywhere you look. Waving your arms and shouting about how “spooky” it all is, is not an acceptable substitute for hard facts and ** definite, ** not “spooky,” connections.
So I’m guessing you didn’t bother to read the link I helpfully provided, huh?
Let me summarize: The identities of the three “tramps” are firmly established by the records of the arrests. None of them are Charles Harrelson, Howard Hunt, or anybody other than (1) Harold Doyle, (2) John Gedney, and (3) Gus Abrams. Doyle and Gedney were still alive in the early 90s (and still are as far as I know) and confirmed their identities as the men arrested by the Dallas cops. Abrams had already died by the time the DPD records that identified the men were released, but his sister confirmed his identity based on the photos taken that day.
For those of you playing the conspiracy game thinking that LHO had some odd connections, I reccommend playing LonesomePOlecat’s game with your own life. You’ll find a lot of things you never thought much about:
Myself I found I could be linked to:
Militia units
Radical Peace activists
The mob
Green Berets
The US Air Force (several times)
The US Navy
Naval Intelligence
US Army
The Royal Navy
Wiccans (several times)
Reenactors
Quakers
Crtical Mass
The EPA
Philadelphia Police
Santa Cruz Sherrif’s department
THese are the tangible connections. I could make some simple ‘connections’ to add the CIA, FBI, and a host of other 3-letter acronyms.
The funniest thing about this ‘conspiracy’ is that on one hand, the conspiracists allege that the US government (or pick your favorite assassin) managed to kill a US president in broad daylight and GET AWAY WITH IT…but on the other hand, everyone and his brother just KNOWS it was a conspiracy! Well, which is it? Did they “get away with it” or not? Never mind the fact that the same powerful government that has managed to cover-up the “truth” about the Kennedy assassination can’t seem to stop about a thousand authors from publishing their books on the subject. Sheesh!
Geez!You could almost create a “7 Degrees of JFK” type game where someone mentions the name of a celebrity(or his father) and people try and link him to JFK’s assassination in as few degrees as possible.
Player #1: “Carrol O’Connor”
Player #2 : " That’s easy!O’Connor’s son was a drug addict(before he died) and bought his drugs from a dealer who was actually a CIA plant.The CIA organized the hit on JFK!"
Just remember the truth…
I will 'fess up to an error I made. I wrote Marksman when I meant Expert, the highest level of Marine rifle target accuracy. Other than that I stand by my comments.
Your adamant assertions that we know everything that is to be known about the assassination reeks of fanaticism. You know it all and you do not want to hear anything else or else you will call them names. Let me break the news to you. There are unanswered questions. Whether they are coincidences or coverups, they will not go away. Forty years on and some very intelligent people do not believe the Warren Commission. (Then again, some intelligent people do believe it, it takes all kinds.)
I truly believe that you people who so vehemently wish to stifle discussion on this subject have an agenda. (See, no name calling, just a simple accusation.)
For the rest of you, be sure to watch the repeat on Kennedy assassination on the History Channel this Friday.
What possible agenda could they have?
There’s another explanation: those arguing so vehemently that LHO acted alone are simply tired of the conspiracy theorists and their bullshit questions. Yes, there are unresolved questions; there are also questions that seem unresolved to some only because they have an agenda.
When the truth seems obvious to you, and someone’s dragging out the same, tired arguments for the 100th time, that you know to be bogus, how patient are you?
mipsman, can you tell us what those unanswered questions are? The only unanswered questions I can think of are “what happened to the first shot?” and “what hit Tague in the face?” But these aren’t questions that are key to understanding what happened that day.
Minty has used an exasperated tone to respond to a few posters here. But I can’t blame him - the ideas brought up are the same old ones that have been debunked time and again, or are just assertions without a scintilla of evidence: Oswald wasn’t skilled enough to shoot Kennedy. DeMohrenschildt was Oswald’s CIA handler. Woody Harrelson’s dad was one of the “bums” arrested. Jack Ruby had a mafia boss. The fragments in Connally’s leg were too big to come from CE399. The claim that Oswald tried to assassinate General Walker is unsubstantiated.
These are crap assertions. People claiming them have had no evidence at all to call on.
Thanks for bringing it up the subject CurtC; I had watched the History Channel’s Men Who Killed Kennedy (or something like that) and begin to wonder maybe there was something to it after all, until I watched an espisode in which the alledged lover of her SO LHO talk about her experiences…Ecch! Boy did that shiver me timbers. Now I wonder if this alledged grade-B tryst finally put LHO over the edge…
http://www.salon.com/people/col/reit/1999/04/22/oswald/print.html
It’s possible, but let me tell you about my next door neighbor Princess Anastasia…
Hello there, mipsman! How are you doing this fine evening? Me, I’m doing pretty well, and I hope the day finds you as well.
There, now that I’m done with the pleasantries, do you recall when I asked you to do the following?
My challenge still stands. So far, all you’ve done is ask ignorant questions and whine like all get out. Time to grow up, act like an adult, and put your fucking facts on the table.
Now.
Thank you.
Can anyone suggest any good reason why Oswald did not shoot when the Presidential motorcade was coming toward him or as it was making the curve? (Especially if Connelley was slightly to the left of Kennedy.)
Did any of you who know much about sharp shooting notice the scope on Oswald’s weapon? It looked crooked to me.
One of the main things that I cannot explain to myself is the collection of autopsy photos in comparison with the film. I don’t know if you “youngsters” are aware that the full film of Kennedy’s head being blown apart was not made available for public viewing until a few years ago – maybe ten years. The autopsy photos show a head that is intact. At the time, it freaked the doctors who had worked on him. The photos are still around and so is the film. See for yourself.
There were people who were talking about the inconsistencies at the time. And they are still alive and still talking. Hundreds. You would have to disbelieve all of the doctors who were with Kennedy at the hospital that day to believe that there wasn’t a coverup. Even the doctor who announced Kennedy’s death said that Kennedy died of a gunshot wound to the head. He pointed to his forehead – not to the back of his head. Why would he point to the exit wound?
And the same is true of one of the doctors who was with Oswald when his body came into the hospital. He received a call from President Johnson who said that a man was there who was going “to hear Oswald’s death bed confession.” The White House denied making the call, but the hopital operator backed the doctor up on it.
There are so many, many stories like this that just don’t make sense unless there was a cover up of some sort – or at least behind the scenes manipulation.
There were at least two people who had film of the grassy knoll who were forced to give over that film – one at gunpoint. The other thought that she was giving it over to the FBI, but she never saw it again.
BTW, I also saw the interview with the woman who claims to have been Oswald’s lover. I am very skeptical about her story. Highly romanticized and inconsistent.
I do believe that Oswald shot the President. But I don’t think he was the only one. And I won’t speculate on who or why. I’ve followed this story for forty years now and with each new revelation and documentation, I am more convinced.
And remember that there are things that are not to be revealed for another twenty or twenty-five years. Why would they keep more information about Oswald secret?
President Truman was the first American President to send military advisors to Vietnam. President Eisenhower increased the number of military advisors. They were only supposed to be there for four months but we kept sending more and more advisors and more and more money. The actual beginning of the war is considered to have been in 1954. President Kennedy did not begin serving until seven years later.
During the Kennedy Administration, the numbers increased to 16,000. I assume that is both advisors and combat personnel. The number of deaths in Vietnam did increase each year that he was in office to a total of 489 – somewhere close to what it is in Iraq now. Because of his concern for the number of lives lost, Kennedy had asked that a plan be drawn up for the total withdrawal of American troops from Vietnam by 1965. That plan was terminated with his death and another 55,000 men and women were killed.
Neither he nor Robert Kennedy were the reason that we were in Vietnam. That had more to do with Eisenhower’s sense of loyalty to the French. And certainly Eisenhower could not have foreseen what would happen.
If someone doesn’t like President Kennedy, that is her or his privilege. But if this President had listened to his hawkish military advisors in October of 1962, instead of thinking clearly and creatively and asking the right questions and weighing carefully, this earth would probably be a dark and empty place. Almost everyone, including the President, believed that we were not going to be able to avoid a nuclear war and that it might come at any moment. But he was able to prevent it. That is one of the reasons that he was so loved and so mourned. It’s hard to imagine unless you’ve lived through it.
My apologies to the OP for the hijack. I just have a low ignorance tolerance on this particular subject at this particular time of the year.
Minty, can I ask you a question about the assassination investigation? I hope you can form an answer from your own personal legal experience:
What do you think was going through the mind of Jim Garrison - what’s your reading of him as a DA? Did he behave like a DA in the course of his personal investigation? Do you think he was a decent man and decent lawyer who got obsessed to the point of ‘madness’ with this particular case? Or was he always thought of as a little flaky? Did he really think he had a case, and if so, did that diminish him as an investigative lawyer in many peoples eyes?
Disclaimer - I haven’t read any of the books mentioned, so I’m judging Garrison’s behaviour solely from Stone’s film and from a little googling- he may not have even been like that or believed the things he is alleged to have believed in the film - especially as many other details are bogus.