I like/believe in yoga and dislike/disbelieve in it at the same time... your thoughts?

[Aeschines]

I’m a guy who does Pilates and Pilates-related (mat springboard) exercise a few times a week (I also lift). I started Pilates nearly two years ago, and it’s been great for me. It’s helped me get bigger than when I was working with a personal trainer lifting three times a week, the difference being that Pilates doesn’t make me sore. It’s also helped me be more flexible and lose a lot of fat (I’ve gone from 200 to 195 but can wear the clothes I wore when I was 180). I would say that Pilates has very few cons to it. The only thing I would say is that men who want to get reasonably buff (not huge) will probably want to add in some extra lifting for chest, shoulders, and bis (although I was surprised at how much Pilates alone raised my chest strength, and it really ripped up my back…).

I start with this as background as Pilates and yoga are often compared, and I now have a good basis for comparison, since my studio had yoga for a bit (plus I had done some moves on my own with a book before that). I liked the class, I liked the teacher, but I ended up both disliking and liking yoga at the same time (I realize there are many types of yoga. I am trying to make my comments generally applicable).

So I am first going to start with the pros I have for yoga. Then in the cons section, I will directly compare it to Pilates. I don’t think yoga has any areas that beat Pilates, except that it can develop flexibility and balance in ways that perhaps Pilates can’t. But this point also has caveats that I’ll explain below.

Pros of yoga/things I believe it does

1. Pretty much any exercise system is better than none, so long as it doesn’t cause injury. Yoga fits this.

2. It will make you stronger to a point.

3. It will make you more flexible.

4. The intention one puts behind the practice, and working with a community of others doing it, can have a positive effect on mood and on spiritual development (although, I have said in a previous post that people who are into yoga often turn me off). I am not sure if the moves themselves really have much to do with spiritual development, however.

So yeah, yoga is good for you. No question about it. My qualms are whether it’s really an efficient way to achieve physical goals, and is it the most pleasant way?
Cons of yoga/things I don’t believe it does

1. I found a lot of the yoga positions to be a strain and unpleasant. Of course, some of them felt good. This is not entirely dependent on my ability to do them or not. For example, I could do Downward Dog but I didn’t find it comfortable. Now, it may be that I would get used to it after years of practice, but I also didn’t see the point of it.

In contrast, I find very few Pilates moves unpleasant, but I do see the point of them all. Which brings me to my next point:

2. Yoga as a modern system (doesn’t matter which one) seems chaotically formulated. Presumably it’s based on the ancient Indian practices (and, thus, legit, right?), but there are tons of quibbles to be made with that notion. At the end of the day, lineages don’t matter, effects do. And I doubt that the postures and moves of yoga add up to the most efficient way to achieve the effects. In my yoga class, there would be a series of moves, and it added up to what was, for me, a pretty strenuous workout, but it’s not as though it was balanced to work every part of the body.

In contrast, the lineage of various Pilates methods are pretty easy to trace, as Joseph Pilates lived until 1967. He consciously created a system of exercise that was complete and efficient, and there is very little online saying that he didn’t achieve that (I’ve seen people scoff at Pilates but not negatively analyze it). The purpose of the various exercises is readily apparent. And each Pilates class exercised the whole body. There is no “leg day,” for example (although sometimes the teachers emphasize certain things to mix it up and keep things interesting).

3. The goals of yoga are typically wishy-washy. Ancient yogis were aiming for enlightenment, but modern yoga teachers aren’t usually very clear about what students might achieve. Is it an exercise system? Will it kinda calm you down? Advance you spiritually? I’m all for that if it works, but I don’t that yoga does a whole lot for spiritual development (I’m a self-described New Ager, FWIW). At least, nothing more than other ways of taking care of one’s body.

The goals of Pilates are mostly physical. There is some emphasis put on mind-body connection, which seems to consist, reasonably, of maintaining good form and breathing correctly.

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The above may seem mostly negative about yoga, but I think it’s mostly because yoga circa 2014 is not for me. When I was doing moves by myself in the 90s with a book, I liked it a lot better. I actually think a lot of the moves are good for one and can increase flexibility and health in specific ways. But yoga today seems much more fixated on being a pretty brutal workout instead of specific set of exercises for health.

I think what is needed is more research: Why are we doing Downward Dog? What are its effects? And so on for each of the moves. Develop a real system with some science behind it.

What do you think?

[monstro]

I don’t think anyone should do something “just cuz”. If they don’t believe that it’s good for them and nor does make them feel good, then they should consider an alternative–of which there are many.

I’ve been doing yoga for three years. I don’t believe it’s good for me for 95% of the woo reasons the instructors talk about, but I still think think it has helped me stay active. Mostly because I feel better after I do it, and after I do it, I want to do more. Could I feel just as good doing something else? Sure, I guess. But it took me a long time to get to a point where I could even say I like yoga. I don’t feel like starting over with something new just so I can say I’m getting a better work-out, even though yoga still kicks my butt.

Because yoga at least pays lip service to a philosophy of no judgment or competition, people who have body issues or other psychological hang-ups may find it more appealing than your typical aerobics group exercise class. This is it’s biggest selling point, IMHO. Nothing says “you can do this too!” better than seeing the 80-year-old lady next to you doing a downward facing dog.

A number of yoga enthusiasts I know do both yoga and pilates. What this tells me is that both practices offer something that neither does alone.

[even_sven]

I think that you are asking too much yoga. If you think you are get a good workout and feel good, why worry so much about the rest? Sure, it’s not the One True Theory of Fitness. But people who do it a lot tend to be pretty fit, and people who use it as just part of their workout routine seem to benefit.

[Aeschines]

@monstro

I don’t think anyone should do something “just cuz”. If they don’t believe that it’s good for them and nor does make them feel good, then they should consider an alternative–of which there are many.

Thanks for your response. I definitely agree with this point.

I’ve been doing yoga for three years. I don’t believe it’s good for me for 95% of the woo reasons the instructors talk about,

Yes, and I think the woo factor is a problem. And I say this as a person who believes in a lot of woo. But I prefer organized woo, and I find the woo of yoga to be rather indefinite and disorganized. It’s an unsystematic exercise system unsystematically combined with an unsystematic spiritual system with a fog-shrouded and BS-ful lineage.

but I still think think it has helped me stay active. Mostly because I feel better after I do it, and after I do it, I want to do more. Could I feel just as good doing something else? Sure, I guess. But it took me a long time to get to a point where I could even say I like yoga.

This is another issue. I think there are other ways to exercise that are easier to get into, maintain, and grow with. I don’t think it should feel bad from the start.

I don’t feel like starting over with something new just so I can say I’m getting a better work-out, even though yoga still kicks my butt.

And that’s another problem. I think it’s fair to say that hatha yoga was not originally conceived in India as a “butt-kicking” exercise system. Until I took my yoga classes recently, I had thought of yoga as being primarily a system (in its secular form) primarily to develop flexibility and health. What I experienced was indeed quite strenuous, cardio-intensive, and butt-cheek-impactful. I think what yoga has to offer that is better than other exercise systems is the flexibility and balance part.

Because yoga at least pays lip service to a philosophy of no judgment or competition, people who have body issues or other psychological hang-ups may find it more appealing than your typical aerobics group exercise class. This is it’s biggest selling point, IMHO. Nothing says “you can do this too!” better than seeing the 80-year-old lady next to you doing a downward facing dog.

That is an interesting point. Yet… that same advantage could as easily be applied to any exercise system. (I will say that Pilates ends up being for the upper middle class or higher, since it is very hard just to start classes, even though the classes are reasonably priced. You pretty much have to do private lessons to get in shape to do the classes, which are pricey. I am not rich but did decide to invest in the privates…)

A number of yoga enthusiasts I know do both yoga and pilates. What this tells me is that both practices offer something that neither does alone.

I think yoga adds an extra dimension of flexibility, balance, and fluid movement. I would be interested in that portion systematized appropriately.

[Aeschines]

@even_sven

I think that you are asking too much yoga. If you think you are get a good workout and feel good, why worry so much about the rest? Sure, it’s not the One True Theory of Fitness. But people who do it a lot tend to be pretty fit, and people who use it as just part of their workout routine seem to benefit.

True all, but this really doesn’t address the arguments I made. For example, the same could be said of CrossFit, but I think CF is a very poorly designed exercise and fitness system (yoga is better than CF, however).

[monstro]

@Aeschines

This is another issue. I think there are other ways to exercise that are easier to get into, maintain, and grow with. I don’t think it should feel bad from the start.

Well, speaking for myself, there isn’t any kind of group exercise that isn’t going make me feel bad from the start. Zumba, pilates, spinning…there isn’t anything that isn’t going to leave me embarrassed or frustrated. And I don’t think I’m unique in this regard. For me, it’s motor skills. For another person, it could be something else like weight issues or performance/social anxiety. “Do what you like” is great advice in theory, but the truth is that is it a very high goal for most people. Most people just need to find something they don’t hate, that gets them motivated to move. For some individuals, for whatever reason, yoga is the one thing they can tolerate and stick with. Doing something is better than nothing. And people exercise for different reasons.

And that’s another problem. I think it’s fair to say that hatha yoga was not originally conceived in India as a “butt-kicking” exercise system. Until I took my yoga classes recently, I had thought of yoga as being primarily a system (in its secular form) primarily to develop flexibility and health. What I experienced was indeed quite strenuous, cardio-intensive, and butt-cheek-impactful. I think what yoga has to offer that is better than other exercise systems is the flexibility and balance part.

It kicks my butt specifically because it works on balance and strength, two things that I need help with the most. I know how to do the cardio work-up-a-sweat thing. That’s a no-brainer for me. But yoga challenges me on stuff that I don’t get practice with in my daily life, and that I actively avoid because it is so hard.

[Aeschines]

@monstro

“Do what you like” is great advice in theory, but the truth is that is it a very high goal for most people. Most people just need to find something they don’t hate, that gets them motivated to move. For some individuals, for whatever reason, yoga is the one thing they can tolerate and stick with. Doing something is better than nothing. And people exercise for different reasons.

I think that is a good point. It’s a system that is not that hard to start, and people can grow with it. In that sense, it fills an important niche in the exercise “marketplace.” In contrast, Pilates is hard and expensive to start (assuming one needs private lessons, which will often be the case).

It kicks my butt specifically because it works on balance and strength, two things that I need help with the most. I know how to do the cardio work-up-a-sweat thing. That’s a no-brainer for me. But yoga challenges me on stuff that I don’t get practice with in my daily life, and that I actively avoid because it is so hard.

Makes sense.

[Try2B_Comprehensive]

I think it is good to draw a line between yoga-as-exercise and yoga philosophy. Neither is a bad thing, they are just separate things.

@Aeschines

3. The goals of yoga are typically wishy-washy. Ancient yogis were aiming for enlightenment, but modern yoga teachers aren’t usually very clear about what students might achieve. Is it an exercise system? Will it kinda calm you down? Advance you spiritually? I’m all for that if it works, but I don’t that yoga does a whole lot for spiritual development (I’m a self-described New Ager, FWIW). At least, nothing more than other ways of taking care of one’s body.

You should forget about the ancient yogis. You are doing yoga, so what do you think you are doing?

I think yoga is really great exercise. I’m over 40 now so I don’t like to do anything very dangerous, and yoga can get me to really break a sweat without breaking anything else. When I was in High School I really liked to max out on weight lifting. I’m not against that, I just haven’t been into weight lifting for some time.

If you get into the yoga philosophy, you’ll see that the ultimate purpose of Hatha Yoga is to enable you to sort of ‘conquer’ your own body. The philosophy will lead to the notion that your identity is not your body, and some yoga exercises can be construed as proofs or demonstrations of various points along this path. I think it depends on what you are like, but some of it can be quite upsetting, so at the very least don’t be surprised if you get scared or upset about things if you go looking into the philosophy.

When it comes to this kind of thing though, other experts tend to dis yoga as the way to achieve their… let’s call it ‘englightenment ends’. Most things they dismiss altogether as worthless. Yoga isn’t worthless, but not at all the first choice if you are looking for ______, except in certain circumstances maybe it will be the one thing that works for you. You might not like it- most phenomena are a sort of an illusion, nothing actually happens (which by means of silver lining, doesn’t interrupt the bliss), you don’t have a soul so there is no reincarnation nor afterlife, but then again you don’t die because you were never born, in fact you don’t even exist…

[Hilarity_N.Suze]

When I was doing physical therapy on my shoulder I asked my PT who, among all the people she saw, were in the best shape as they got older. She didn’t even hesitate and said “people who do yoga. And Pilates.” (Yeah she kind of added Pilates after a beat.)

Now I love Pilates although, unlike with the OP, I have done Pilates moves that made me sore. They didn’t hurt when I was doing them. In fact the whole thing basically felt almost as good as a massage. But yeah, there was some muscle soreness later, on occasion.

I think Pilates is a lot better for me and I like that they don’t try to lay a spiritual thing on you. They seem to share a lot of the same moves, but my understanding is that traditional yoga was more about the breath than about the position. But having said that, I belong to a gym where yoga is free and Pilates costs, so being cheap, I mostly do yoga, which is better than nothing.

I am not looking for spiritual enlightenment. I am looking for flexibility, strength, and to look good naked.

[Try2B_Comprehensive]

[QUOTE=Hilarity N. Suze]
They seem to share a lot of the same moves, but my understanding is that traditional yoga was more about the breath than about the position.
[/QUOTE]

Right. The idea is to keep the mind constantly focused on one thing, the breath, while the body goes through its gyrations.

With Pilates is the recognition that there is an end of these gyrations; namely better strength, flexibility, endurance and so on. You get these with yoga too, so same diff.

[The_Fornicator]

I’m a guy and I am totally a Pilates evengelical. Love it, can’t imagine life without it.

However, not an insignificant part of that is to do with the instructor - my enjoyment is led by finding an instructor who suits me. I have no idea if that would also be the case with yoga.

I read some of the above, it seems to me - and also from what friends report - yoga can work to cleanse and relax the mind in a way I don’t experience with Pilates.

But yea, yoga/Pilates should be on the school curriculum.

[Aeschines]

@Hilarity_N.Suze

Now I love Pilates although, unlike with the OP, I have done Pilates moves that made me sore. They didn’t hurt when I was doing them. In fact the whole thing basically felt almost as good as a massage. But yeah, there was some muscle soreness later, on occasion.

Right. I didn’t write completely enough: I have gotten sore, especially at the beginning when my core wasn’t strong, but it was never to a distracting level. Same thing now: I don’t get sore so that I really notice it, but sometimes I can feel it a day or two later.

When I was working with a personal trainer three times a week, there was never a day of the week I wasn’t sore to a distracting level. I feel that I am in better shape now than I was then, so I think this lack of soreness in Pilates is a real benefit.

[Aeschines]

@Try2B_Comprehensive

You might not like it- most phenomena are a sort of an illusion, nothing actually happens (which by means of silver lining, doesn’t interrupt the bliss), you don’t have a soul so there is no reincarnation nor afterlife, but then again you don’t die because you were never born, in fact you don’t even exist…

Yes, well, I prefer existence with my spirituality.

[even_sven]

@Aeschines

True all, but this really doesn’t address the arguments I made. For example, the same could be said of CrossFit, but I think CF is a very poorly designed exercise and fitness system (yoga is better than CF, however).

To try to get at what I’m attempting to express…

I am extremely interested in productivity, and I’ve spent a fair amount of time and effort trying to find the Theory of Everything productivity system-- one that works for every aspect of my life, is beautiful and elegant, has great tools (well designed apps, maybe some special notebooks and planners…), and that I will use seamlessly in my life in to perpetuity.

For years, I’d get upset because what I had instead was a bunch of random systems, some better than others, that I would use intensively for a bit and them move on from. I never found my Theory of Everything.

But eventually I realized that is okay, too. Humans are designed to seek novelty, so there is value to mixing it up and trying new things. And while no system was perfect, ma by were right for that moment.

[Aeschines]

@even_sven

For years, I’d get upset because what I had instead was a bunch of random systems, some better than others, that I would use intensively for a bit and them move on from. I never found my Theory of Everything.

But eventually I realized that is okay, too. Humans are designed to seek novelty, so there is value to mixing it up and trying new things. And while no system was perfect, ma by were right for that moment.

I hear ya. I can appreciate that on one level while critiquing yoga on another.

[Try2B_Comprehensive]

@Aeschines

Yes, well, I prefer existence with my spirituality.

That’s just the ego talking. You’re not what you think!

But I don’t know of any yoga class that leads directly into that material. It is mostly a gymnasium with some meditation, which I do think is good for a person.