I nearly committed identity fraud

Great Debates
1

For the two posters on the Boards who don’t already know, I’m a pre-operative male-to-female transsexual. My license still says “male” because (seriously) I simply haven’t gotten around to finding time to go down to the DMV and stand in line to change it. I have the documentation I need to satisfy Illinois’ requirement to change the listed sex on my license (a letter from my psychologist attesting that I am a male-to-female transsexual). However, I am now glad that I haven’t.

Apparently, under new regulations being set forth by the Social Security Administration, anyone who obtains or renews a driver’s license bearing information that disagrees with what the Social Security Administration says is true and correct is committing identity fraud and is subject to prosecution. In an increasing number of states that have “linked up” with SSA’s database, any attempt to apply for or renew a license with a discrepancy in name, birth date, or sex will be denied, will potentially lead to criminal sanctions, or both. Now, the SSA’s requirements to change my legal sex are a lot more stringent than Illinois’. The SSA requires a letter from a surgeon attesting that an “irreversible alteration” to my sex has been made (in my case, that means “removal” of my genitals – we’ll ignore that bits of them will get reused in interesting ways) before they’ll entertain a petition to change the sex listed on my license. They also reserve the right (from what I have heard) to conduct a personal examination of me. And by “personal examination” I don’t mean merely asking me a few questions; it means groping me out to see if I really have had my dangly bits removed. It can take months or (in some cases) years before the SSA completes this process, which cannot be initiated until after surgery has been performed.

In California, under recently adopted law, a person is whichever gender they present themselves as. Several other states (including Illinois) have concluded that a driver’s license should reflect apparent gender rather than “reproductive gender”. However, the federal government has chosen to effectively override these state determinations and set itself forth effectively as the final arbiter of gender.

Even worse off than I are the poor souls who have already had their licenses changed (like my friend Lisa in New York). They will be forced to either change them back, surrender them entirely, or face identity fraud prosecutions. Some of them even have legal orders of change of sex under their state’s law, which puts them in the unenviable situation of having to choose between fraud under state law or fraud under federal law.

There’s a lot of debates here, ranging from whether the SSA’s policy of overriding state law determinations of gender is constitutional to at what point in the process, if ever, a transsexual should be allowed to change their legal sex to whether presenting as a sex other than that one was born constitutes “fraud”.

Does anyone seriously think that I’m defrauding anyone by presenting to the State of Illinois a paper that states that I’m a transsexual and could I please have my license changed to match? If so, whom?

2

Why does the Social Security Administration need to know our sex? :confused:

3

To enforce the selective service act?

4

Fortunately for you, the Social Security Administration, I have discovered through the years, could not tell shit from Shinola if they came labeled with neon signs and chorus girls pointing to them singing “shit” and “Shinola.”

5

Eve, I will have you know that you are entirely to blame for the image that is currently stuck in my head: a fully-uniformed women’s choir, pointing to a steaming pile of freshly-laid feces, and singing, in perfect harmony, “SHIIIIIT!!!”. That’s just the sort of thing that’s going to randomly pop into my mind at the exact moment I don’t need to be laughing. Thanks a billion :wink:

In regards to the OP, I don’t think it really matters one way or the other. As far as I know (IANAL, YMMV, etc, etc), they don’t hunt people down for displaying the incorrect gender on their driver’s license…and even if they do, you ought to be able to argue an effective case for either side of the coin, given your current situation. What are they going to do, order you to make it permanently clear one way or the other? As long as you get it changed after you “get it changed”, if you catch my drift, you should be fine.

Hopefully someone with more knowledge than I on these matters will come along soon. Best of luck.

–Ian

6

Anytime, hon.

Kels, I never had anything legally changed except my name; I was issued a new driver’s license when I moved from state to state with no trouble and an “F” on it. Never had any legal trouble in 20-some years.

. . . though I probably will now . . . “Just kidding about the shit and Shinola, SS people!”

7

Do you have a cite for this claim?

  • Rick
8

Denial of license renewals for “discrepancies” is based on public statements made on the State of Massachusetts’ Registry of Motor Vehicles website. There are reports from Massachusetts of individuals threatened with prosecution for identity fraud if they do not surrender their “discrepant” licenses and have them corrected to list their “proper” sex (as determined by SSA), even though the statement on the RMV’s website doesn’t list gender as a condition for which discrepancy will invalidate the license.

I also have a personal report from a California citizen (received in private email) of an individual who was issued a California license with a “male” designation which was subsequently revoked because the SSA said he was female. California has allowed transsexuals to list their apparent sex on driver’s licenses for over a decade and recently adopted a general law that states that a person’s presented gender is their legal gender; revoking the license of a person who presents as male because they were born female seems to contradict that facet of California law.

SSA has been known to reject name changes where a male applicant files for an obvious feminine name, or vice versa. When I filed mine, they initially reversed my first and last names, presumably because “Martin” is more appropriate than “Kelly” as a man’s name. (This caused my report of social security earnings for that quarter to be rejected by the SSA and was corrected when our payroll person informed them that they were wrong and sent them a copy of my name change order, which they had already received from me.) They refused my initial filing because I attempted to change my gender as well; that was when I was informed that I would need to be “examined” and the person I spoke to at the SSA said that such an examination might also include a medical examination to be performed by SSA personnel.

9

Why not contact the State of Massachusetts’ Registry of Motor Vehicles and ask for the cite they apparently are following?

10

If you can put a script together and we can find a choreographer, I would be very interested in directing. :smiley:

11

The only cite you provided - the Massachusetts RMV - does not support the claims you make here, as you yourself acknowledge. “There are reports” which you are aware of, but unfortunately, I am not. While I certainly don’t wish to ask you to reveal private e-mails, I’m wondering if there are any published reports of the activity you allege in the OP.

  • Rick
12

None that I am aware of. Of course, the media generally don’t pay much attention to transsexuals unless we’re giving teenagers blowjobs while standing in a tree, or driving cars while wearing nothing but fishnets. :rolleyes:

In the unlikely event that the media should choose to report on one of these incidents and one such report comes to my attention, I’ll be sure to let you know. Not that they’d be any more reliable than I or my sources are, mind you.

I have the name of one specific person, but I’m not at liberty to pass it on; I received it via a protected channel and I can’t just go publishing his name on the Internet without his approval.

13

Of course - that’s absolutely proper.

But I feel constrained to point out that in the realm of GD, the coin is independently verifiable citation. No aspersions on your friend - or you, of course - but it’s difficult to judge the proposition based on totem-pole hearsay. So from a GD perspective, I’m afraid I must regard the claim as without foundation. I called the Virginia DMV, and their response was that they verify name with the SSA records, and comply with the “legal presence” law, in which an applicant must prove his citizenship or legal residency in the state, but that they did not check gender, nor were they aware of any law or regulation requiring that they do so. This is, as you know, consistent with the information in your cite.

  • Rick
14

Further research on my part and on that of others has confirmed that this is the “official” policy in those states that have been checked. It’s looking more and more like this is a case of practice deviating from policy, and that the incidents that have happened to date are the result of stick-up-the-ass motor vehicle department employees (in at least three states, so far) choosing to find a violation when no legal violation exists. (For example, the case in California that I was aware of has now been resolved in that individual’s favor, as a result of administrative action.) The SSA does report its notion of gender to the state as part of the verification process, but states are not required to ensure consistency between state law gender and SSA reported gender in order to issue a license. California, at least, has a policy of disregarding the SSA reported gender – but apparently there are individuals in the California DMV who don’t follow that policy.

So the blame now shifts from insensitive policy-making on the part of diverse state DMVs, to inadequate supervision of diverse state DMV employees. The underlying question, as to whether the SSA is entitled to disregard state law in determining a person’s gender, remains valid, however.

15

This is an excellent question. I can think of absolutely no compelling reason that the SSA’s determination should be binding on the states. Each state should be able to decide for itself what criteria it will accept as determining gender, and the SSA has no business sticking its nose into the process.

  • Rick
16

Hang on a second here the SSA does not ask for a persons gender they ask for a persons sex. As long as you still have your dangly bits your sex is still male. I’m not entirely sure of the role that social security numbers come in to play with drivers licenses but I think they are used as verification of citizenship. If the states want to use your social security number as proof of citizenship then the SSA has every right to require that all information be accurate.

17

So. treis, pray tell me why “dangly bits” as you so eloquently put it, are the deciding factor in determining sex? Why not chest configurations? Why not hormone levels? Why not chromosomes? Why not general normally presented physical appearance?

Should we stamp intersexuals’ records with a big ol’ I until they knuckle down and get surgically reconfigured whether they want to or not? Should we remove the M from the records of people so unfortunate to have their dangly bits accidentally removed? Should the M be replaced with and F in those cases or do you need a proper vulva to be an F? Should those individuals who have had all their external female genitalia removed be stripped of their F as well? How about those that have part of their dangly bits removed for medical or fashion or personal reasons? How much dangle makes a man? Should those that purposely nullify their sex get an N?

Tell me, how is it helpful for identification to know how much ones bits dangle? If the person is dressed, and especially if they are conscious, overall appearance is more accessible. I certainly don’t let people casually inspect my bits while I am conscious unless they are already intimate with me or I am paying them to inspect my bits. If the person in question is in bits and thus normal appearance obscured, DNA, and thus chromosomal sex is more accessible. What use exactly is a stranger knowing the extent of ones dangle?

18

You don’t need to be a citizen to get a driver’s license.

IIRC, I never told the State of Illinois my SSN when I got my driver’s license. I don’t own a car titled or registered in Illinois (I have a car, but it is titled in Indiana and not currently registered anywhere) so I don’t think the Illinois DMV even has my SSN.

19

KellyM-

If that is so I have no idea why the SSA would make the new regulations or how the even can enforce them.

lee-

I think its fairly obvious why knowing someones sex is helpful in identifying if you have the right person or not. If the person that is wanted is a female and you arrest a male you’ve made a mistake. Whether or not it is better to list a persons gender is irrelevant, the SSA lists a persons sex. Determining a persons sex is a fairly tricky processes this site lists seven different categories. In this case KellyM has the equipment and genes which by any biological definition makes her a member of the male sex. As far as the cases you listed they are the dreaded exceptions to the rule and need to be determined on a case by case basis.

20

It is not obvious to me. Care to answer my questions as to what should be done in those cases?