I pit anti-virus software

Anti-virus software. It’s supposed to keep you safe from all the nasty stuff written the social malcontents on the Internet. But people still get infected even while running anti-virus software like Norton or McAfee.

Norton Anti-Virus especially is a bloated piece of crap that consumes much CPU and memory while only mostly protecting you from viruses. NAV’s interference with many other legitimate programs is well-known in software and tech-support circles.

I submit that commercial anti-virus software is written to pacify you and keep you paying for their virus definition updates forever (or at least until Windows is sufficiently secure to prevent viruses from infecting the whole OS. ) Ok, make that forever.

Anti-virus programs work by recognizing patterns of bits/bytes that distinguish a virus from a picture of your dog, or a MP3 file, or a spreadsheet. Each time a new virus becomes known to an anti-virus company, they update their virus definitions to include the signature of that virus. Of course, X number of people already have the new virus, X number of people haven’t downloaded their update files yet and are susceptible, and X number of people don’t run costly anti-virus software.

The trouble with this approach is it’s reactive rather than proactive. Anti-virus companies will perpetually be playing catch-up with the latest viruses at your expense, instead of fixing the vulnerabilities that lead to virus infection.

I submit that anti-virus companies should be more worried about combating virus behavior than cataloging each specific virus that comes out. Don’t let rootkits install hidden legacy mode drivers. Don’t let programs overwrite or add files to the C:\windows directory without confirmation. Don’t let programs modify the Run section of the registry, or the Startup folder of the Start Menu without confirmation. Don’t let web pages change browser settings.

And I wish people would quit falling for Symantec crap just because Norton Utilities used to be a good program.

Your ideas are generally FUBAR. Virus companies do catalog viruses and release fixes because that is the best way to do it yet you make it sound like they should just abandon that approach for other things.

Here is the thing. They already use the other strategies as well. All the major anti-virus programs already have fuzzy logic that try to identify even brand new viruses that don’t have a patch and they have pretty good success. The actual definitions increase this success greatly though.

The reason that anti-virus programs don’t just lock down your whole system is because that decreases flexibility, may introduce problems of its own, and would just generally piss most people off. However, there are plenty of tools that allow you to do that if you choose. Spybot Search and Destroy will protect your registry and other critical system setting and let you confirm all changes via a popup window.

How exactly are my ideas FUBAR? Do you propose people should pay monthly fees to Symantec and McAfee forever?

If Spybot Search & Destroy can protect your system for free, then why can’t expensive solutions like Norton Anti-Virus do the same thing?

I think anti-virus companies are dragging their feet on actually SOLVING the problem.

First thing I do with a new machine is shut off and remove the anti-virus software.

I’ve never had a problem with a virus.

I have had problems with spyware, but Spybot, MicroSoft AntiSpyware and a few other free programs have been plenty capable of cleaning them up and keeping me clean.

Norton and McAfee, IMO, are pretty much nothing more than elaborate scams.

Norton used to be good, but I agree, it’s the worst kind of bloatware these days.

However, AVG does just fine, and it’s free for home use: therefore its improvements and playing catch-up are not done at my expense, which IMO negates the general breadth of the OP.

Why anyone would pay for something that drags your computer down, when AVG is available, I have no idea.

Exactly. I run Grisoft AVG at work just in case, but at home I don’t run anything, and the last virus I got was back in DOS days. Of course I understand what software (I’M LOOKING AT YOU IE, I’M LOOKING AT YOU OUTLOOK EXPRESS!) and behavior (installing toolbars, screensavers, etc.) gets people infected.

You sounded like you were talking about anti-virus strategies in general. No one has to pay for anti-virus software. AVG Free Edition is at least as good as Norton and I switched to it even though a paid version of Norton.

The general idea about locking everything down is what is FUBAR. When you lock stuff down, you decrease flexibility or increase hassle. Many programs really do need access to the registry so you can’t really just shut off all access. Windows can’t ever be made 100% secure because there are application level viruses and worms as well as viruses that invoke legitimate system processes for creative harm. Users are going to get pissed if they get called on to approve some mysterious system update they don’t understand several times a day. That would be far from foolproof as well and there is no way to vaugley describe in software what is good versus evil program behavior.

Well you can increase hassle now or buy a new computer later (that’s what many people do when their system gets so fouled up with spyware and viruses it runs like a 286), or reinstall Windows regularly.

Start with basic steps. Something like: “The ‘Bob’s Beer Brewer’ program wants to run automatically every time your system starts. Do you want to allow this?” is a good start. Maybe with a “More Info” button to describe in greater detail the pros and cons. My system only has 6 or 7 entries in the Run section of the registry, that’s not a lot of questions to answer.

These problems are ultimately Microsoft’s fault for not protecting the integrity of their own system, but if the anti-virus people were doing their job, they would protect from stuff like that instead of trying to keep up with the definition of every new virus that comes out daily. I had to disinfect a computer with a rootkit on it, and there’s no way a legacy-mode system-level driver should be allowed to silently install.

Avast is another free anti-virus, to keep programs from modifying the Run section of the registry, or the Startup folder of the Start Menu without permission I run WinPatrol.

CMC fnord!

  • On preview, this is a big-assed reply, and kind of rambling too. I apologize in advance -

control-z, I knew we’d meet again! :wink:

Listen, you are entirely in your rights to take issue with what you see as bloated, potentially ineffective products. And if you feel confident you can compute safely without AV software on your system, great. Good on you.

I will acquiesce your point that the market-leading consumer versions may be a bit heavy on the unnecessary features and the cute and pretty user-comforting GUIs, both of which can bog a system down. However, were it not for the Norton, McAfee and the like with their “feature bloat”, the average low-tech end-user would not run AV software. And let’s face it, the average, low-tech end-user is a major source of the security problem - I don’t say this to be smug or insulting, it’s just a truism that will never change.

As I mentioned in this thread, I use a corporate AV product because I work for an AV company, so I can’t really speak to specific issues with consumer products, and ethically, can’t really promote my company’s product - if you think it sucks, then good for you. But I can defend the use of AV software in general.

Let me put it like this - we’ve all heard stories from computer professionals about the system that gets infected even though AV software is installed on it. Well, keep in mind, that the malware got on the system despite the presence of AV software, not because of it. If AV software had never, at any point, been installed on the user’s system, imagine how much worse the problem would have been? If the end-user had been clicking attachments with impunity, and installing spyware-attached “freeware” to their heart’s content, without any protection on the system, how bad would the problem have been then?

Here’s the crux of the issue. People have said, in this thread, and in many other places, that AV vendors need to stop being reactive and start being proactive - that if someone could simply detect bad stuff that is about to happen on a system just because it looks like “bad stuff”, then you’d eliminate the need for regular updates. This ignores a couple hard facts: first, is the golden rule of security - one needs to assume that every security measure one takes will fail at some point, thus necessitating remediation. In the case of viruses/malware, this remediation is the quanrantining and removal of the threat. Even if realtime scanning fails for some reason - common reasons are an unknown threat disables it, the real-time engine isn’t running, or, commonly, the end-user turns it off before disconnecting - a manual scan can usually be run to find threats and remove them. So some kind of AV detection engine will always be needed for manual detection and removal of threats.

Second, to block threats by behavior requires pretty tight adminstration and control over the target system, to estabish the baseline of “good” behavior so one can then identify “bad” behavior. It’s easy enough to gripe that “bad behavior is pretty obvious, so just block it” - in reality, a lot of info needs to be fed into the security product before any blocking can occur. What applications you want to use, what filetypes they use, what protocols, ports, etc. etc. ad nauseum - if you’ve ever installed a client firewall like Norton Internet Security, ZoneAlarm, etc, these are those “annoying” popups you get the first couple weeks of using the product. The problem is that even when they have a client firewall installed the average low-tech end-user will often misconfigure the firewall rules so that stuff is blocked that shouldn’t be, or so that stuff that should be monitored is not.

To take control-z’s example of creating a startup rule for “Bob’s Beer Brewer” program - quite often, the untrained user will either misconfigure it to block, or worse, allow all communication on all ports and protocols. If it’s just “Bob’s Beer Brewer” that’s not much of a problem; but what if the rule is created for Outlook, or IE, or some spyware app that was just downloaded and installed?

control-z, you mentioned a rootkit on a system? If a rootkit got on a system with any decent AV product on it, either the end-user turned off the antivirus (or never had it turned on to begin with) or they installed it on an already-infected system. Or maybe their installation of Windows was severely hosed and the AV product never hooked into the API properly. Every major AV vendor ensures that their stuff goes out the door capable of detecting the most severe threats by default, out of the box - to not do so would be irresponsible. What happens from the time the product is taken out of the box, installed on the system, and configured, is entirely to the end-user or system builder.

It also doesn’t help that a great many mainstream applications instruct the user to turn off AV and firewall software before starting an application - The Sims 2 for example. Once the security software is turned off, the system is wide open to infection if still connected to the internet. Not all viruses these days require someone to manually open an attachment - there are a ton of very common threats that simply require a specific vulnerability and a certain protocol to be available. Blaster, Welchia, Nimda, around 1,000 gaobot and spybot (not SpyBot S&D) variants. And unlike email viruses, which eventually stop due to their manual method of propogation, these threats never go away. Right now, I guarantee you there is a system connected to the internet churning out Nimda infection attempts, even though it’s 5 years old. And if you’re running an old Win2k or Win98 system without patches (trust me, there’s more of these out there than you think) and connect to the internet, you will be infected.

I guess after all this, what I’m trying to say is this - if one can compute and communicate safely, has a basic understanding of how to keep their system protected and secure, then great. There are a great many poeple out there who don’t understand the concepts involved, and frankly, many of them do not want to understand. As an example, my dad practically lives on his computer - he trades on eBay, uses email more than the phone, and plays a pretty mean game of Solitaire. But I have tried time and time again to explain some basic security concepts to him, and he just can’t grasp them. Same with many other friends and family. Hell, I have an uncle who used to teach university-level math - definitely the smartest guy in any room - I sat with him for an hour or so at Thanksgiving a few years ago trying to explain just what the hell I do for a living to no avail (as I mentioned in the other thread, I sell security software). These are the kind of users that will always go with a known brand, and will demand the kind of user-comforting features that tend to be perceived as “bloat”.

My last word (this is probably more than I’ve posted on the SDMB in three years) - effective, enduring security solutions will always involve a recurring fee structure. If everyone switched to Grisoft or Avast or (insert free AV product here), they could not scale. They would either go out of business, or begin charging a regular fee. The smaller, free solutions have the benefit of being niche players that have a base of technically experienced users - meaning that their users for the most part already compute safely. As more and more inexperienced users adopt such a solution, if the vendor didn’t buckle under the weight of an exponential increase in threat submissions due to both volume and an increasingly uneducated user base, they would collapse under the high-bandwidth demands of the update distribution infrastructure - unless they started charging.

control-z is right about what you need to do to prevent viruses from being problems, but he’s wrong about what needs to do it. Antivirus software is simply not capable of preventing viruses from doing bad things. That is the OS’s job, and if the OS isn’t doing it your system is screwed and no antivirus software can help you.

This problem was largely solved back in the 1960s, when serious timesharing computer systems were invented. In a real multitasking system, the OS was given enough power to prevent any program, and any user, from doing anything whatsoever. The program couldn’t even list a directory without going through an OS security check. Further, the OS was capable of, and charged with, protecting users from each other, which meant that a program owned by Alice couldn’t mess with files owned by Bob unless it passed a security check. No serious multitasking system has had a virus problem anything like what Macintosh, DOS, and Windows have had, despite all of them having been around for at least a decade longer and having been used in serious, high-profile work.

Of course, that isn’t why profile-based AV software is doomed to fail. AV software is doomed to fail because it is trying to solve the Halting Problem. Solving the Halting Problem in general for computers anywhere near as complex as the ones we have ever actually used is impossible, something proven by Alan Turing back in 1937. Here is a website that outlines the Problem and the proof of its insolubility. Essentially, we can’t prove, in general, that a program will execute a certain code path, so we can’t prove that it is a virus or that it is benign. Here is a webpage expanding upon that point. The author of that second page’s sanguine assessment of this condition does not square with the real-life experience of running Windows even with AV software installed: Viruses are not going away and they are not effectively being stopped.