Continued from the What Were You Thinking? thread
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Babale is minimizing the very serious threat the Trump administration represents against trans people. It’s not just about trying to push them back into the closet. They are actively trying to criminalize trans existence in many circumstances.
You’re a fucking idiot if you think that. There are more than two boxes that things can fall into. “Just fine” and “Literally Hitler” are not the only two categories. All I’ve done is push back against the “Literally Hitler” characterization, because I don’t think it’s effective in winning support for our side, because people can see that what is happening now does not fit in the Literally Hitler box, and that makes them feel like we are liars.
I’m so fucking sorry that this is apparently too complicated a concept, nowadays.
Hitler existed and did bad things before the Holocaust. It’s entirely reasonable to call out similarities to early Hitler when the consequences of ignoring it could result in middle or late Hitler level events.
Do you really honestly believe that there aren’t senior people in the Trump administration who would be fine with the extermination of trans people if they thought they could get away with it?
Babale likes two things: genocide and denying genocide is occurring. He’s a real piece of shit.
In a vacuum, sure.
In reality, when you say “this person is doing Hitler-like stuff”, people associate that with, you know, the Holocaust.
And in reality, part of the reason we are here is that people have been making these comparisons to “early Hitler” since Bush if not earlier. It’s extremely counterproductive. It means that when Trump does something that IS incredibly beyond every possible line - like Jan 6 - it gets lost in the noise.
It’s obviously possible in theory that there are some Trump officials who would be down to set up gas chambers and are keeping that fact close to the chest, but no, I can’t think of any senior people in the Trump admin who have given me reason to believe that they want to start mass executing trans people or anyone else, no.
There are senior Trump officials who, as you note, clearly intend to do things like criminalizing access to transgender care, which is incredibly bad and will lead to deaths. That’s super fucked up and should be opposed at every level. I’ve never said otherwise or given any indication that I either support those sorts of measures, or don’t oppose them wholeheartedly.
It’s the part where you agreed with Demontree.
Was she? Because none of the people she was referring to as making the comparison were. So why would you assume that, unless…
Gosh, look at you, doing the very thing I keep saying you’re doing - minimizing what the transphobes and the GOP are doing, like the bad faith piece of shit liar you are.
Ah, the “If they’re not exactly like the Nazis were in 1944, they can’t be compared to Nazis” argument favored by bad faith piece of shit liars.
The Republicans are trying to shove trans people into literal prison. And to transfer trans women to men’s prisons where they will suffer horrific sexual abuse and potentially death.
And are still ramping up the anti-trans rhetoric to an extreme level. And we’re less than three months into this administration.
But at least you acknowledged in passing that some might die in amongst your bullshit. So that’s something.
Or you could just pretend the really bad stuff isn’t happening, as you keep doing. Because you’re a bad faith piece of shit liar.
Yes it does…but not where you think.
I’ve given you dozens of news articles. You’ve given us one irrelevant cartoon panel.
No, I believe you don’t. And yet you didn’t really respond to my actual questions.
I mean, all the Republicans are doing is ramping up a carefully-designed years-long propaganda campaign against a vulnerable minority in order to justify an ongoing pogrom against them, to distract from their power grab. It’s not like you ever saw the Nazis do something like that. 
They are doing something that is beyond every possible line RIGHT NOW. And you’re a fucking idiot if you don’t think it’s happening. Which I think we’ve already firmly established.
I don’t think he likes genocide. He’s just concerned about it, in a Susan Collins sort of way.
I agree with @Babale that reprehensible as the Trump administration is, the extreme hyperbole with which the terms fascism and genocide are being used cheapens them. Now if the deliberate intention is propaganda, to insist that the many bad and stupid things Trump is doing are one and the same as fascism and genocide (and that anyone who disputes this is a supporter and collaborator), then as @Babale notes you’re going to lose a lot of people who know bullshit when they hear it. Now if like the old-time communists you want all who won’t 100% sign on to the program to be put up against a wall and shot when the Revolution comes, then we’re simply going to have to part ways ideologically.
What response are you looking for? You asked if this statement is extremist:
“People should be treated accordingly in every area of PUBLIC life without regard for aspects of biological sex, and various other things.”
The idea that you should completely disregard sex assigned at birth (biological sex is the phrase from the quote I was responding to, not the phrasing I would choose) in EVERY SINGLE SITUATION is indeed an extremist position. If you narrow this down to PUBLIC life, that makes the statement much less extreme, because it removes areas of life that almost everyone agrees can be based on sex assigned at birth: who you sleep with, what medical treatments you go for, etc.
Pretty much the only area of life left once you specify PUBLIC life where most people agree sex assigned at birth should still be taken into account is sports. So if we are including sports in the equation, that’s an extremist position, and if we aren’t, it’s not.
Does that answer your question or is it still not what you were looking for? If not, I honestly don’t know what you are asking.
What would it take for you to acknowledge that the current administration is very much pushing the country into fascism? Will you only acknowledge attempted geoncide after it is successful?
This is not extreme hyperbole. Not anymore.
Men wearing armbands armed with clubs and guns and beating and shooting protesters against the administration. That’s real fascism, not snowflake fascism.
Some of what Trump has done is undeniably fascism. Like January 6.
The problem is that when everything is fascism, nothing is.
Here are the questions again:
And
“Snowflake fascism”? Seriously?
I mean, it’s not like Trump hasn’t been encouraging violence against protesters and the media since 2016, including sending both right-wing vigilante groups and LEOs to the 2020 protests to attack non-violent protesters.
And you know that passport control is now interrogating even US citizens entering the country about their views of the president including confiscating phones and laptops, and are deporting non-citizens who have expressed anti-Trump views. You do know that, right?
Did your chosen news sources not report this story?
And of course there are all the people shipped off to a prison camp in El Salvador with no due process.
And then there are the ongoing threats against media outlets, law firms and any law enforcement agency that has ever dared to hold Donald Trump accountable for his actions.
So - do we meet the fucking criteria for “real” fascism yet, Lumpy?
Who says “everything” is fascism? The fascism that is happening is fascism. Claiming those things aren’t happening when they clearly are does not make them “not happening” and is not a rebuttal of valid comparisons to fascism.
I don’t understand the question. Why exclude romantic partners and doctors? Because if the statement was “Trans people should be treated as the gender they identify with at all times, no questions asked, including by their doctors and by prospective romantic partners”, I think we could ALL agree that this is a VERY extremist position, right?
Right?
So, since presumably we all agree that “Trans people should be treated as the gender they identify with at all times, no questions asked, including by their doctors and by prospective romantic partners” is an extremist position, there’s not a lot of interesting discussion to have there.
If you disagree - if you think that a doctor shouldn’t take sex assigned at birth into account when providing treatment, or that it is transphobic to only choose sexual partners whose sex assigned at birth matches your preference - then say so, and we can discuss those ideas. But if we all agree that those are extreme positions that few if any trans people and activists hold, we can just move on.
I answered this question twice now. The qualified way I present, “people should be treated accordingly in every area of PUBLIC life without regard for aspects of biological sex, and various other things”, IS an extremist position if it includes sports*, and IS NOT an extremist position if it excludes sports.
*I think restricted access for some trans women, for example girls who transitioned before undergoing male puberty, is not an extremist position, although it is a controversial one, even among Democrats. It’s a position I support, mind you.
Yes, seriously.
Non-citizens are by definition in this country at the government’s sufferance. It’s reprehensible for the Trump administration to be so intolerant of opposing views but no one can say that that’s illegal.
Talk is cheap. Are you the sort who takes one anonymous hate message as meaning you’re in imminent danger of being murdered? Seriously, snowflake fascism. Again, I’ll believe it’s fascism when I see actual fascism: state-sanctioned violence.
Nope, not even close.
Many courts have indeed said that. And we’re talking green card holders and people on student visas.
I notice you haven’t addressed the whole “people being grabbed off the street and detained” thing, which is AGAINST THE FUCKING CONSTITUTION. Unless of course you’re fine with that.
Are you to sort who makes up completely inapplicable hypotheticals in order to avoid the actual point? Why yes - yes you are.
I’ve given you several examples. I guess I can’t make you see something you don’t want to see.
I don’t know if you’re aware, but this is more than just talk; Trump has sued multiple media outlets frivolously and then took millions of dollars from them in exchange for dropping the lawsuits. This is a huge abuse of power and should be impeachable in and of itself.
I don’t think it’s fascistic per se, however there is a world where as tariffs take their toll Trump starts giving companies he likes, who are willing to work with him, exemptions; that’s where the government starts picking the economy’s winners and losers, getting in bed with collaborating businesses in a way that’s very reminiscent of Fascist economic policy. I don’t think Trump is purposefully stirring the ship in that direction - I think he’s genuinely stupid enough to think that a trade deficit is inherently bad - but being anywhere near where we are is very concerning.
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This pitting is stupid. Babale clearly does not support “trans genocide”.
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Having said that, I can certainly see why people are getting tired of Babale’s schtick of coming into threads where people are discussing terrible things and seemingly caring more about playing Prescriptive Language Police than about actually discussing said terrible things.
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I disagree with Babale’s premise that Democrats/“the left” have driven voters away by repeated false accusations of fascism and genocide. I have never seen any political scientist making that claim. I don’t remember ever seeing a single GOP political ad attacking of Democrats for making such claims. I can’t even remember ever hearing a single person cite that as a primary reason for not voting Democratic, though I imagine it’s happened at some point.
And there’s an obvious and highly relevant counterexample to the hypothesis that ordinary people are alienated by hyperbolic language. In the last couple years, Palestinian sympathizers in the US have been increasingly vocal about labeling Israel’s actions as “genocide”. Although some people have strongly objected to this usage, and correlation is not causation, the usage has become popular at the same time that public opinion has been rapidly shifting toward the Palestinians.
- The vast majority of evil people and movements which, at some point in their histories, could have been validly compared to Hitler don’t actually end up being anywhere near as bad as Hitler, so there’s a lot to be said for restraint in the use of that particular comparison. OTOH, when the actual Hitler was actually carrying out the actual Holocaust, most people in the West didn’t believe it and assumed the Jewish activists trying to draw attention to it were exaggerating. So it’s not clear that reserving claims of genocide for cases that meet the strictest definition would actually cause those claims to be taken more seriously.