[QUOTE=Scylla]
I think failing to recognize the validity of the basic distinctions between simple disagreement and pure insult removes the possibility of a meaningful discussion between us on this subject.
[/QUOTE]
In other words, you can’t cite an example where an enemy of the US has damaged the President by slander.
[QUOTE=Scylla]
…The President has a right not to be slandered, is injured by slander and one who slanders the President of the country may, in some cases, be construed as that coutnry’s enemy…
[/QUOTE]
"
It’s tough to think of anyone on the planet less likely than the POTUS to be granted a hearing for a slander suit, actually, but the really scary thing about this assertion isn’t the disregard for reality. The really scary thing is how smoothly and seamlessly it classifies political adversaries as enemies of the state. Given what happens to enemies of the state nowadays, it’s quite a mouthful for anyone used to freedom.
The issue is as much about a veteran’s ability to do what he wants with his medal as extraordinary rendition is about a prisoner’s right to privacy. John Kerry and several other veterans have used theirs in acts of political speech. But Kerry did not require the participation of the president in making his statement. If he had, and had gotten it, the least that could be inferred would be that the president approved the message.
Bill Thomas wants to make the statement that George W. Bush deserves a Purple Heart for suffering verbal criticism, by giving him one. He wants to do this in spite of the fact that, unlike some other decorations, this one isn’t given out as a matter of someone feeling one deserves it – there are a set list of criteria for earning the thing, which GWB hasn’t met. But as a mere object, a thing, he can do what he wants with it, and nobody seriously disputes that. Kind of like deciding to slip the Decider ten bucks, you know, just for putting up with us.
What he originally wanted was to give the thing to his congressman (same link as the OP) to be forwarded. Just a quiet gesture from a citizen, one that some might disagree with, but unlikely to raise a fuss. Wasn’t asking for presidential participation, any more than Kerry or many others had.
But boy, he got it. The White House decided not only to endorse Thomas’ statement, but to amplify it by creating a ceremony around it and making it a media event. This makes it tough for any but the most cement-headed among us (and bless you, Shodan, for providing the example) to insist that Bush is just passively receiving a tribute, not endorsing the idea that he deserves the medal, oh, no, just doesn’t want to be rude, and what about the poor veteran’s freedom of speech, huh? And it doesn’t demean the decoration a bit, because country-lovin’ Republicans would never denigrate any Purple Heart, except at a political convention.
I’ve got a message I’d like the president to help me with. I’d like him to star in this skit I wrote…
You are very close to suggesting that the President manipulated this man’s gesture for a maudlin and tawdry political stunt. Of course, this is very much the sort of thing that Hitler would have said. And, as I’m sure you will admit, Hitler was an enemy of the United States…
just wanted to do a tip o’ the hat, as it were, to our friend ** Soup** fine job. 'tis always worth checking your post out. thanks.
Don’t know what’s going on here. A perfectly good post has gone missing all of its text…
[QUOTE=The King of Soup]
Bill Thomas wants to make the statement that George W. Bush deserves a Purple Heart for suffering verbal criticism, by giving him one. He wants to do this in spite of the fact that, unlike some other decorations, this one isn’t given out as a matter of someone feeling one deserves it – there are a set list of criteria for earning the thing, which GWB hasn’t met. But as a mere object, a thing, he can do what he wants with it, and nobody seriously disputes that. Kind of like deciding to slip the Decider ten bucks, you know, just for putting up with us.
[/quote]
If, as stated in the story linked in the OP, this is the statement Mr. Thomas wishes to make, I am in agreement with most here that this is a statement of exceptionally dubious validity.
See, this is what I haven’t been able to glean from the text of the story in the OP’s link. I’ve searched news on Google and Yahoo! for the terms “Bush, Purple Heart, Thomas” and the only source for the story appears to be the Kileen Daily Herald, press date April 16. Every other hit that mentions this story, regardless of the day it posts, begins with the sentence:
Bolding mine - kd99
It seems to me to be perfectly plausible that Congressman Carter forwarded the gift to the White House, and the Chimp (or more likely, some social engagements functionary) asked the congressman’s people to extend a luncheon invitation to Mr. and Mrs. Thomas by way of reciprocation for the gesture. I get the impression that the only reason it made any paper at all was because Mr. Thomas, in his excitement over being invited to the White House for lunch, was unable to restrain himself from shooting off his mouth down at the barber shop, or some similarly bucolic gathering place in the sleepy burg of Copperas Cove.
I’d purely love to see some evidence to the effect that political apple-polishing was on the agenda (seeing as I’m such a LEFTWINGCUTESYSEMANTICBITCH), but my mad internets research skillz aren’t quite sufficiently mad. I suspect that breaking news of the VT shootings resulted in the entire event being cancelled. Or, if the luncheon and presentation came off as planned, the press releases got round-filed.
Maybe an email or two will surface in October or something.
Oh, and apropos of not much: Scylla, “I” before “E”, please. As in believe. The spelling control sectors of my brain thank you for your assistance in keeping the OCD-prone sectors’ attention diverted from their presence.
[QUOTE=Frank]
If you substitute “the usual suspects” for “Gollums”, you will be less bewildered but no more enlightened. Shodan has not, unlike some of his equally conservative brethren, accepted that those to the left of his viewpoint have perfectly valid criticisms. I’m not, of course, using “valid” in the sense of “correct”, but rather in the sense of “disagree”.
[/quote]
So you are alleging that I refuse to recognize that anyone disagrees with me? This is even more rdiculous than usual. Congratulations.
Which is, of course, simple nonsense drawn from the fact that you don’t read my posts for content.
Which would tend to mitigate against the notion that you and the rest are not attempting to discourage the vet from giving Bush a medal.
I expect it will do no good to point out for the umpteenth time that Bush is not claiming to have met the criteria for earning a Purple Heart.
It doesn’t seem to have been. The whole notion that Bush was implying that he deserved a Purple Heart by making a big fuss over it, and staging a semi-official ceremony or forging a citation or something, is mere hysteria by the -
Well, you know who.
Regards,
Shodan
[QUOTE=Shodan]
Which would tend to mitigate against the notion
[/QUOTE]
[schoolmarm]
" … to MILITATE against…"
Please make a note of this.
[/schoolmarm]
Oh, good. Shodan’s back to prove that even if you have to stand on your head to make what you see conform to your opinions, it’s worth it just for the new-found ease with which you can look down your nose.
[QUOTE=Shodan]
I expect it will do no good to point out for the umpteenth time that Bush is not claiming to have met the criteria for earning a Purple Heart.
[/QUOTE]
Actually, the fact that you keep on saying it suggests that you expect otherwise. But that’s okay, because the mindless repitition does (this time) serve a useful purpose. It underscores your lack of an answer to the proposition that the political statement Mr. Thomas wishes to make (as his his right) is that George W. Bush deserves a Purple Heart (awarded to those soldiers and certain civilians who have been physically wounded in combat through the action of our country’s enemies) for the harm he has suffered from the verbal attacks of anyone, including citizens of friendly nations and the president’s own countrymen, who oppose his policies, and that for the Decider to lend to this exercise of free speech his presence, time and office, not to mention his P.R. staff, is an unambiguous statement that he endorses the statement Mr. Thomas wishes to make. That the White House has not only decided to adopt and publicize this message, but has done so on its own initiative, is all the proof needed to conclude that Bush is adopting Mr. Thomas’ delusion as his own. Your delusions are your own affair, thank goodness, but you may now take your own advice and stop boring everyone else with them.
[QUOTE=The King of Soup]
It underscores your lack of an answer to the proposition that the political statement Mr. Thomas wishes to make (as his his right) is that George W. Bush deserves a Purple Heart (awarded to those soldiers and certain civilians who have been physically wounded in combat through the action of our country’s enemies) for the harm he has suffered from the verbal attacks of anyone, including citizens of friendly nations and the president’s own countrymen, who oppose his policies, and that for the Decider to lend to this exercise of free speech his presence, time and office, not to mention his P.R. staff, is an unambiguous statement that he endorses the statement Mr. Thomas wishes to make.
[/QUOTE]
By that reasoning, you are endorsing Shodan’s statements by quoting his text and responding to him, lending his exercise of free speech your time and presence.
Maybe it’s something to do with a Southern upbringing, but I’ve never known graciously accepting an unmerited and unsolicited gift to be a bad thing. If a man gave me his medal because of his admiration for me, the very last thing I would do is insult him by sending him away with rejection, no matter how politely worded. Substitute someone you admire for “Bush” in this scenario, and ask yourself whether you couldn’t see it from a different point of view.
To those who don’t think that Bush’s acceptance of the medal is an endorsement of Mr. Thomas’ statement, please consider this hypothetical: Joe Sixpack wishes to donate his great-great-grandpappy’s Confederate cavalry saber to George Bush in recognition of George’s tireless efforts in defence of the White Race from the Mud Peoples. He prints out a nice certificate and gives the sword and certificate to his Congressman, who passes it on to the White House. Do you think that Bush would accept the sword because it is a generous gift, and he wishes to be gracious? Do you think that the donor would ever see the inside of the Oval Office?
We thank you for your critique, Lib. Prescience like yours makes clear why the Libertarian movement is poised on the brink of world domination.
To what extent were they going to make a ceremony out of it? That’s the question I have.
Perhaps it was just a meeting with a political supporter, which I don’t believe anyone can fault.
Now, again, as I said above, I would have a problem with a big to-do being made over this. However, I haven’t seen much evidence of that.
[QUOTE=elucidator]
You are very close to suggesting that the President manipulated this man’s gesture for a maudlin and tawdry political stunt. Of course, this is very much the sort of thing that Hitler would have said. And, as I’m sure you will admit, Hitler was an enemy of the United States…
[/QUOTE]
luci, Godwin is dead.
[QUOTE=Liberal]
By that reasoning, you are endorsing Shodan’s statements by quoting his text and responding to him, lending his exercise of free speech your time and presence.
[/QUOTE]
Phooey. Not even close to a coherent argument. Bush is accepting the medal, not refusing it. Is Bush going to call Mr. Thomas a cement-headed moron and explain why the vet’s attempt to give him a medal is wrongheaded and disrespectful to those who have earned it? Hint: no. Perhaps you’ll concede, then, that there are differences between the president inviting someone to a ceremony at the Oval Office and me calling an idiot an idiot on a message board, and that those differences impact upon the implied acceptance/endorsement of the subject’s original statement. You’re responding to my post, quoting a larger portion of it than I did of Shodan’s. So you must agree with me? Well, you must, of course, because that’s just the natural order of things, but you know what I mean.
[QUOTE=Liberal]
Maybe it’s something to do with a Southern upbringing, but I’ve never known graciously accepting an unmerited and unsolicited gift to be a bad thing.
[/QUOTE]
Stop it. Are you implying that Southerners know of no way to graciously decline an inappropriate gift or an honor they have not earned? I wasn’t born Southern, but I’ve lived here long enough to know that it isn’t true here any more than it is elsewhere.
[QUOTE=Liberal]
If a man gave me his medal because of his admiration for me, the very last thing I would do is insult him by sending him away with rejection, no matter how politely worded. Substitute someone you admire for “Bush” in this scenario, and ask yourself whether you couldn’t see it from a different point of view.
[/QUOTE]
First of all, your acceptance or rejection of such a gift is unlikely to have any widespread impact (not that you’re not famous and influential in certain circles, mind you). Second, Mr. Thomas’ reasons don’t boil down to simple admiration. If a man gave you his medal based on his belief that you deserved it, and you knew you didn’t, would your sense of courtesy overcome your sense of honesty to him and to the rest of the world? Third, even if your upbringing kept you from clearing those hurdles, if the man just sent you the thing via a mutual acquaintance, why would you insist on a public ceremony where he could give it to you again, rather than just thanking him privately and maybe trying to explain why you felt appreciative but undeserving of it?
Liberal, I’ll mention here, if I haven’t before, that I’m glad you came back. And I’m not unaware that even though we’ve butted heads good and hard in the past, since then you’ve gone out of your way (sometimes quite far) to be gracious to me. I think you’re very wrong here, but don’t think I’m classing you with those who are either honestly stupid or wilfully ignorant (which is actually even more stupid, just with fewer spelling mistakes).
And, on preview:
brossa: good analogy, but I’ll refrain from making any bets until I know the size of the donor’s PAC fund.
Mr Moto: Mr. Thomas gave the thing to his congressman to give to Bush. The ceremony in the White House was conceived by the White House, opened to the press by the White House, and presumably the big-game hunters who are going to shoot the Decider with a tranquilizer dart and drag him to the ceremony will be paid by the White House. Either that, or G-Dub is doing this voluntarily, which means he’s affirming the statement Mr. Thomas is making.
Wile E, elucidator is comparing the Nazis only to our enemies, which in fact the Nazis were. In fact, it’s clear that the Nazis were much less our enemy that the current evil dastards we’re dealing with: after all, we never had to deny Geneva Convention protections to those guys, and they were, in the end, deserving of a trial.
elucidator, yeah, I know, if I were important enough for anyone to pay attention to, I’d be keeping a spare toothbrush near the front door.
Here is an update to the story.
Well, Bush believing he’d earned it was pretty much my only objection to his actions. So fair enough.
[QUOTE=The King of Soup]
…
Wile E, elucidator is comparing the Nazis only to our enemies, which in fact the Nazis were. In fact, it’s clear that the Nazis were much less our enemy that the current evil dastards we’re dealing with: after all, we never had to deny Geneva Convention protections to those guys, and they were, in the end, deserving of a trial.
…
[/QUOTE]
Kingy, in my recent stalkings of luci I found 2 posts where he said the same thing I just said. It was meant as an homage which I hoped he’d recognize as such, imitation is the sincerest form of flattery and all. No disrespect or smart-assedness intended.
I admit it wasn’t a very good offering from me, but I haven’t been able to keep up with the discussion since a few pages back. I just read it for the elucidator comments.
[QUOTE=kaylasdad99]
Maybe an email or two will surface in October or something.
[/QUOTE]
Don’t bet on it
[QUOTE=rayh]
Here is an update to the story.
[/QUOTE]
From the same link:
So he says he doesn’t feel like he’s earned it, but that didn’t stop him from accepting the bogus citation or from having the idea for this obsecene award ceremony in the first place. His “aw shucks” protestations are more than a little disingenuous.