I pit double standards in race crimes

[QUOTE=mhendo]
Well, speaking for myself only, i’m a political lefty, and i tend to be opposed to hate crime legislation, even though i understand the very real historical circumstances and current discrimination that impels such legislation.

Fundamentally, i believe that if people commit criminal acts, we should punish those acts. I really don’t think it is wise to spend too much time speculating on what type of hatred and prejudice—if any—may or may not have been going through the perpetrator’s head at the time of the criminal act. Much as i loathe the type of hatred that some people carry around with them, we shouldn’t be criminalizing thought.
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Speaking as a fellow lefty, I largely agree with this, but I do think there is a valid application for hate crime legislation. Some kinds of hate crime are a species of terrorism. Burning a cross on someone’s lawn is not just a case of trespassing and vandalism, nor is it a threat aimed at just whoever owns the lawn. It’s an attempt to terrorize an entire population into flight or subservience. Crimes like that should be treated harsher than similar, non-racially motivated crimes, because they have a larger number of victims.

I think that hate crime laws need to be much narrower. If I make a pass at a homophobe and he beats the crap out of me, I wouldn’t consider that a hate crime, and it shouldn’t be punished any different from any other assault. He attacked me because I’m gay, but he’s only attacking me, not all gays everywhere. However, if a bunch of guys wait outside a gay bar and beat me up because they want to scare all the gays out of their neighborhood, that’s a much more serious crime, and deserves to be treated more harshly.

[QUOTE=Miller]
Speaking as a fellow lefty, I largely agree with this, but I do think there is a valid application for hate crime legislation. Some kinds of hate crime are a species of terrorism. Burning a cross on someone’s lawn is not just a case of trespassing and vandalism, nor is it a threat aimed at just whoever owns the lawn. It’s an attempt to terrorize an entire population into flight or subservience. Crimes like that should be treated harsher than similar, non-racially motivated crimes, because they have a larger number of victims.
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Yeah, i certainly don’t claim to have all the answers on this issue. The absence of hate crime legislation could bring us to the ludicrous situation where burning a cross on someone’s front lawn is treated as simply a violation of the fire code.

I guess, in such cases, we need to think about legal terms like “fighting words” or “threats and intimidation,” and try to work out a way of dealing with things like this.
[QUOTE=Miller]
I think that hate crime laws need to be much narrower. If I make a pass at a homophobe and he beats the crap out of me, I wouldn’t consider that a hate crime, and it shouldn’t be punished any different from any other assault. He attacked me because I’m gay, but he’s only attacking me, not all gays everywhere. However, if a bunch of guys wait outside a gay bar and beat me up because they want to scare all the gays out of their neighborhood, that’s a much more serious crime, and deserves to be treated more harshly.
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Again, i don’t really disagree, although my principled objection to criminalizing thought still stands.

I will say, though, that this strikes me as a case where the distinction i mentioned in my earlier post—between premeditated action and spur-of-the-moment action—might come into play. Obviously, if a group of people wait outside a club to beat up particular people just for being gay, then this requires a certain amount of forethought and premeditation. That forethought and premeditation should, in my opinion, weigh heavily against them at sentencing.

I would argue, also, that if they waited outside a club to beat me up because they didn’t like me, their forethought and premeditation should be a factor here as well.

There are no easy answers here.

Also, i recognize that it’s easier for me to approach this issue without the burden of being a potential victim. As a straight white guy, my chances of being the victim of a hate crime are pretty slim. I’m not saying that this necessarily gives me any more insight or objectivity about the issue, and i think my arguments can stand on their own merits, but i also recognize that i might be less ready to dismiss hate crime legislation if i were part of a commonly-targeted group. I understand why people who have to live with the fear of victimization want some protection built into the law.

Holy crap, mhendo. Excellent posts (#11 & #40).

The problem with OPs like this one is that they consist of a preconceived notion of what would happen if the race/gender/nationalities of the victims or perpetrators were reversed, based on the OP’s own (unsupported) perspective on how the media reports news.

First, I’ve made the point many times that racism is contextual. While it is true that the actions of, for instance, one Black person who hates White people, or thinks that White people are less intelligent, hardworking, etc. may have less of an impact that a White person with the same opinion about Black people - there are institutional structures that support the latter, and few that support the former - it is also true that if a White person encounters a Black racist with a loaded pistol aimed at the White person’s head, suddenly Black racism becomes very real. If these women were attacked because they are White, I would categorize the Black perps as racists.

I don’t know how I feel about hate crime legislation. The examples of Matthew Shepard and James Byrd make me think that the motivation behind those crimes was not stealing a wallet, or getting in a fight - clearly these people were targeted because of an aspect of their racial or sexual identity. But how does one prove this in a less serious crime? Swastikas and burning crosses clearly mean something and there is a message behind that kind of vandalism, but is spray painting someone’s car a hate crime if the victim and perp are different races? I’m all for making perps pay as high a price as possible for assault and vandalism, but it does become hard to tease out at times.

I didn’t get a good feeling when I opened this thread and saw the OP, so I decided to just lurk for awhile and see what developed. I did, however, want to pop in to say two things:

One: I can’t speak to how much this story has been covered, but I live 3,000 miles away from California, and I heard about this very shortly after it happened. Not from the nightly network news (which I generally don’t watch), but (if I remember correctly) from my member-funded, NPR-affiliated jazz station.

Two: Very, very nicely done, mhendo! And honorable mention to DMC, Dead Badger, Hippy Hollow, and Miller.

I live in a very heavily black and Hispanic neighborhood. It is less than 1% white. I am white.

A few weeks ago I walked past a man on the sidewalk (he was older, about 40, and black) who gave me a very strange look and sort of cut me off (that is, he walked in front of me). After I passed him, I hear him shouting something and I turn around to see if he was addressing me. I couldn’t make out everything he said but I very clearly heard “stupid white”.

I ignored it and kept walking, then he shouted something else unintelligible. I stared at him for a few seconds to make sure he wasn’t about to do anything crazy, which he didn’t, and walked on. The whole episode felt pretty weird and not fun though.

[QUOTE=mhendo]
And therein lies the problem in trying to make simplistic comparisons among stories like this.

The Tawana Brawley case, for example, was a case of alleged kidnapping, holding hostage and multiple rape, and in the original story some of the perpetrators were alleged to be police officers.

Not only that, but the case got as much (if not more) attention in the media for the inconsistencies in Brawley’s story as for the original crime. That is, while the press did report and devote considerable attention to the original story of white-on-black crime, it devoted even more time and column inches to the collapse of the case and the problems with Brawley’s allegations.

I think it says something about the case and its media existence that, if you mention Tawana Brawley nowdays, the first reaction of most people is, “Isn’t that the woman who lied about being kidnapped and raped?”

The Duke case certainly received plenty of attention, although it seemed to me that the category of analysis in that story was as much “class” as it was “race.” The media made as much about the discrepancies in levels of wealth and privilege as about race in the case. Of course, in America, any discussions about class and race inevitably overlap, and it can sometimes be difficult to extricate one from the other.

Also, and tying into the same issue, was the fact that the students were from an expensive private university. They were also on a sporting team. Like it or not, that sort of shit is grist to the mill for journalists. And i really think that if the athletes had been black Duke basketballers, and the woman had been white, the story would have received similar attention in the media.

As for the James Bird case, you do understand, i assume, the difference between a fairly simple assault (the Long Beach case), on the one hand, and tying a conscious man to the back of a pick-up truck and dragging him until he’s a mutilated corpse, on the other?

I’m not trying to minimize the brutality or the unacceptability of the Long Beach case. What happened to those victims was awful, there is no excuse for it, and i hope that whomever did it gets properly punished. I’m simply trying to point out that it’s very difficult to make a direct comparison with the cases you cite. All of those cases had certain particular characteristics that gave them national prominence.

Also, on a more general level, while i think it’s laudable to pursue an ideal of perfectly equal media treatment irrespective of race, the fact is that news reporting and popular perceptions of events like this are laden down with history. Sure, slavery and lynchings and officially-sanctioned segregation are in the past, but the fact that they’re in the past doesn’t mean that they don’t still hold cultural meaning. While ten white men assaulting three black women might be objectively just as reprehensible as ten black men assaulting three white women, and while each incident might do equal damage to the victims, the fact is that racism against blacks has a different historical and cultural meaning than racism against whites in America.

It’s like arguing that calling a white man “cracker” is the same as calling a black man “nigger.” In some ideal world, bereft of historical memory, that would be true, but the historical weight and actions behind each of those words and their use means that they are not, in fact, equivalent.

Also, leaving aside everything i’ve written in this post, the fact is that you haven’t offered even the slightest evidence that your assertion of differential media treatment is valid. All you’ve given us is some vague feelings about what may or may not be some differences. But i’ve already shown that the Long Beach story has received considerable attention, certainly attention commensurate with its status as an assault.

Also, while it’s easy to dismiss treatment in the LA Times as merely an LA paper, the fact is that the LA Times is among the five or six most influential newspapers in America. It is one of the city-based papers that is really also a national broadsheet in terms of its news-leading influence. It’s up there with papers like the New York Times, the Boston Globe, the Miami Herald, the Chicago Tribune, and the Washington Post. Competition for space of the front pages of such a paper is intense, and it says something about the weight of this story that it has appeared on the front page no fewer than 3 times, and on the front page of the California section at least seven times.But don’t you understand that merely looking at race isn’t enough if you’re going to claim to offer a thorough analysis of news events like this?

When news organizations decide how (or whether) to cover particular stories, they look at a whole variety of factors. I’m sure that there are racially-motivated crimes every day in the United States. In fact, according to the FBI, in 2005 there were 4,691 racially-motivated hate crimes in the United States. That’s over twelve such crimes every day—and that’s just the ones that were reported, either by the victims to the police, or the police forces to the FBI. It’s probably an absolute minimum. How many of those 4,691 cases do you think make national news?

Of the racially-motivated hate crimes reported to the FBI, 68.2% were triggered by anti-black bias, and 19.9% were triggered by anti-white bias.

If you break it down into the race of the offender and the type of bias motivation, the difference is even greater. As this table shows, there were 368 cases in which black offenders engaged in anti-white hate crimes, and 1803 cases in which white offenders engaged in anti-black hate crimes.

So, according to those statistics, whites attack blacks for reasons of racial bias about five times as often as blacks attack whites for reasons of racial bias. I’m not sure if there’s any statistical conclusion to be drawn about the propensity of either group for this type of attack; i just wanted to point out that, in absolute numbers, whites seem to attack blacks in race crimes more often than vice versa.

I can remember racially-based crimes making the national news on only a very few occasions over the past few years. The fact that we remember so vividly cases like Tawana Brawley, the Duke case, the James Bird case, etc. suggests that they are the exception, rather than the rule. For better or worse, the vast majority of racially-motivated offenses passed unnoticed at the national level, and are probably only reported in local papers and news bulletins.

I think that your allegation of a non-story is, in itself, a non-story.
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And you might very well be right. I was never trying to state it as fact, I guess it was just an impression that I had because of my experiences growing up. Like Rigamarole I grew up in a very heavily black neighborhook and had experiences not unlike his on a number of occasions growing up. I was never assaulted and those kinds of things eventually stopped as I grew older but it stayed with me. I don’t think that it had any decidedly negative affects on me as my best friend from high school is black and is my current housemate, but I tend to notice those cases more so than other ones. I will try to refrain from making unsubstantiated claims in the future.

[QUOTE=Cowboy8467]
Things like Tawana Brawley
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Back up the train here. THERE WAS NO CRIME COMMITTED AGAINST TAWANA BRAWLEY. The only crime was her lies that “six white cops” abducted and raped her over a course of days. She was a lying little bitch who accused a group of innocent men of a henous act, and escaped prosecution.

If anything, it was a black-onwhite crime.

[QUOTE=mhendo]
Yeah, i certainly don’t claim to have all the answers on this issue. The absence of hate crime legislation could bring us to the ludicrous situation where burning a cross on someone’s front lawn is treated as simply a violation of the fire code.

I guess, in such cases, we need to think about legal terms like “fighting words” or “threats and intimidation,” and try to work out a way of dealing with things like this.Again, i don’t really disagree, although my principled objection to criminalizing thought still stands.
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The concept of ‘fighting words’ really needs to go away. I find it to one of the most rediculous concepts accepted by the SCOTUS ever.

[QUOTE=Antinor01]
The concept of ‘fighting words’ really needs to go away. I find it to one of the most ridiculous concepts accepted by the SCOTUS ever.
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Would you abandon the concept altogether, with nothing to replace it?

How would you deal with the types of cases that “fighting words” is currently meant to cover? Would there be, in your legislative universe, anything to prevent the use of overtly threatening and intimidating speech?

I know this is a rather fraught area, and i’ve never been completely comfortable with the use of terms like “fighting words,” but at the same time i don’t think we can just sit back and allow any and every sort of threat to be uttered with impunity.

Yep.

In the clear-cut cases of violence (assault, rape, murder, etc.) there’s often no need for hate crime enhancements, because the acts themselves are bad enough to warrant severe punishment. What those guys did to Matthew Sheppard was, by itself, absolutely inhuman, no matter what the reason.

It is, as you point out, the crimes where the actions themselves are less serious but the thoughts behind them are hateful that it becomes most difficult to know how to proceed. There are going to be times when the motivation behind the crime is clear, and times when it is not.

I think that, if we are going to have hate crime laws, then they must only be applied when there is absolutely no doubt about the motivating factor. The simple fact of a white person vandalizing a black person’s car, or vice versa, is not enough; there needs to be clear evidence that racial hatred was the cause of the crime.

Rigamarole, i’m sorry that happened to you. It must have been rather upsetting. I would venture to say, though, that this particular guy sounds like he might have been mentally disturbed. That doesn’t make your experience any less unpleasant, of course, but if he was mentally disturbed it changes the extent of his culpability for his ranting.

[QUOTE=mhendo]
Would you abandon the concept altogether, with nothing to replace it?

How would you deal with the types of cases that “fighting words” is currently meant to cover? Would there be, in your legislative universe, anything to prevent the use of overtly threatening and intimidating speech?

I know this is a rather fraught area, and i’ve never been completely comfortable with the use of terms like “fighting words,” but at the same time i don’t think we can just sit back and allow any and every sort of threat to be uttered with impunity.Yep.
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If the point is to not allow threats and indimidation, then call it something different. The basic definitions of fighting words irritate me.

[quote=]
In its 9-0 decision, Chaplinsky v. New Hampshire (1942), the U.S. Supreme Court established the doctrine and held that “insulting or ‘fighting words’, those that by their very utterance inflict injury or tend to incite an immediate breach of the peace” are among the “well-defined and narrowly limited classes of speech [of which] the prevention and punishment of…have never been thought to raise any constitutional problem.”
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I really don’t understand the concept of words that inflict injury just by being uttered. Later on the court said that it included words that “reasonably incite the average person to retaliate”. I find that concept rediculous as well. If people don’t have the self control to not fight someone over mere words than they have other problems. I know that I’m in a minority on this opinion, but I’m ok with that.

[QUOTE=Annie-Xmas]
Back up the train here. THERE WAS NO CRIME COMMITTED AGAINST TAWANA BRAWLEY. The only crime was her lies that “six white cops” abducted and raped her over a course of days. She was a lying little bitch who accused a group of innocent men of a henous act, and escaped prosecution.

If anything, it was a black-onwhite crime.
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Well yea that’s kind of what I was talking about. Before it came out that she was lying it was very big news on the national level.

As to the Long Beach case that started this thread, the verdicts have been released.

Nine found guilty, one 12 year old girl found not guilty.

http://abclocal.go.com/kabc/story?section=local&id=4974324