I pit double standards in race crimes

Speaking as a fellow lefty, I largely agree with this, but I do think there is a valid application for hate crime legislation. Some kinds of hate crime are a species of terrorism. Burning a cross on someone’s lawn is not just a case of trespassing and vandalism, nor is it a threat aimed at just whoever owns the lawn. It’s an attempt to terrorize an entire population into flight or subservience. Crimes like that should be treated harsher than similar, non-racially motivated crimes, because they have a larger number of victims.

I think that hate crime laws need to be much narrower. If I make a pass at a homophobe and he beats the crap out of me, I wouldn’t consider that a hate crime, and it shouldn’t be punished any different from any other assault. He attacked me because I’m gay, but he’s only attacking me, not all gays everywhere. However, if a bunch of guys wait outside a gay bar and beat me up because they want to scare all the gays out of their neighborhood, that’s a much more serious crime, and deserves to be treated more harshly.

Yeah, i certainly don’t claim to have all the answers on this issue. The absence of hate crime legislation could bring us to the ludicrous situation where burning a cross on someone’s front lawn is treated as simply a violation of the fire code.

I guess, in such cases, we need to think about legal terms like “fighting words” or “threats and intimidation,” and try to work out a way of dealing with things like this.

Again, i don’t really disagree, although my principled objection to criminalizing thought still stands.

I will say, though, that this strikes me as a case where the distinction i mentioned in my earlier post—between premeditated action and spur-of-the-moment action—might come into play. Obviously, if a group of people wait outside a club to beat up particular people just for being gay, then this requires a certain amount of forethought and premeditation. That forethought and premeditation should, in my opinion, weigh heavily against them at sentencing.

I would argue, also, that if they waited outside a club to beat me up because they didn’t like me, their forethought and premeditation should be a factor here as well.

There are no easy answers here.

Also, i recognize that it’s easier for me to approach this issue without the burden of being a potential victim. As a straight white guy, my chances of being the victim of a hate crime are pretty slim. I’m not saying that this necessarily gives me any more insight or objectivity about the issue, and i think my arguments can stand on their own merits, but i also recognize that i might be less ready to dismiss hate crime legislation if i were part of a commonly-targeted group. I understand why people who have to live with the fear of victimization want some protection built into the law.

Holy crap, mhendo. Excellent posts (#11 & #40).

The problem with OPs like this one is that they consist of a preconceived notion of what would happen if the race/gender/nationalities of the victims or perpetrators were reversed, based on the OP’s own (unsupported) perspective on how the media reports news.

First, I’ve made the point many times that racism is contextual. While it is true that the actions of, for instance, one Black person who hates White people, or thinks that White people are less intelligent, hardworking, etc. may have less of an impact that a White person with the same opinion about Black people - there are institutional structures that support the latter, and few that support the former - it is also true that if a White person encounters a Black racist with a loaded pistol aimed at the White person’s head, suddenly Black racism becomes very real. If these women were attacked because they are White, I would categorize the Black perps as racists.

I don’t know how I feel about hate crime legislation. The examples of Matthew Shepard and James Byrd make me think that the motivation behind those crimes was not stealing a wallet, or getting in a fight - clearly these people were targeted because of an aspect of their racial or sexual identity. But how does one prove this in a less serious crime? Swastikas and burning crosses clearly mean something and there is a message behind that kind of vandalism, but is spray painting someone’s car a hate crime if the victim and perp are different races? I’m all for making perps pay as high a price as possible for assault and vandalism, but it does become hard to tease out at times.

I didn’t get a good feeling when I opened this thread and saw the OP, so I decided to just lurk for awhile and see what developed. I did, however, want to pop in to say two things:

One: I can’t speak to how much this story has been covered, but I live 3,000 miles away from California, and I heard about this very shortly after it happened. Not from the nightly network news (which I generally don’t watch), but (if I remember correctly) from my member-funded, NPR-affiliated jazz station.

Two: Very, very nicely done, mhendo! And honorable mention to DMC, Dead Badger, Hippy Hollow, and Miller.

I live in a very heavily black and Hispanic neighborhood. It is less than 1% white. I am white.

A few weeks ago I walked past a man on the sidewalk (he was older, about 40, and black) who gave me a very strange look and sort of cut me off (that is, he walked in front of me). After I passed him, I hear him shouting something and I turn around to see if he was addressing me. I couldn’t make out everything he said but I very clearly heard “stupid white”.

I ignored it and kept walking, then he shouted something else unintelligible. I stared at him for a few seconds to make sure he wasn’t about to do anything crazy, which he didn’t, and walked on. The whole episode felt pretty weird and not fun though.

And you might very well be right. I was never trying to state it as fact, I guess it was just an impression that I had because of my experiences growing up. Like Rigamarole I grew up in a very heavily black neighborhook and had experiences not unlike his on a number of occasions growing up. I was never assaulted and those kinds of things eventually stopped as I grew older but it stayed with me. I don’t think that it had any decidedly negative affects on me as my best friend from high school is black and is my current housemate, but I tend to notice those cases more so than other ones. I will try to refrain from making unsubstantiated claims in the future.

Back up the train here. THERE WAS NO CRIME COMMITTED AGAINST TAWANA BRAWLEY. The only crime was her lies that “six white cops” abducted and raped her over a course of days. She was a lying little bitch who accused a group of innocent men of a henous act, and escaped prosecution.

If anything, it was a black-onwhite crime.

The concept of ‘fighting words’ really needs to go away. I find it to one of the most rediculous concepts accepted by the SCOTUS ever.

Would you abandon the concept altogether, with nothing to replace it?

How would you deal with the types of cases that “fighting words” is currently meant to cover? Would there be, in your legislative universe, anything to prevent the use of overtly threatening and intimidating speech?

I know this is a rather fraught area, and i’ve never been completely comfortable with the use of terms like “fighting words,” but at the same time i don’t think we can just sit back and allow any and every sort of threat to be uttered with impunity.

Yep.

In the clear-cut cases of violence (assault, rape, murder, etc.) there’s often no need for hate crime enhancements, because the acts themselves are bad enough to warrant severe punishment. What those guys did to Matthew Sheppard was, by itself, absolutely inhuman, no matter what the reason.

It is, as you point out, the crimes where the actions themselves are less serious but the thoughts behind them are hateful that it becomes most difficult to know how to proceed. There are going to be times when the motivation behind the crime is clear, and times when it is not.

I think that, if we are going to have hate crime laws, then they must only be applied when there is absolutely no doubt about the motivating factor. The simple fact of a white person vandalizing a black person’s car, or vice versa, is not enough; there needs to be clear evidence that racial hatred was the cause of the crime.

Rigamarole, i’m sorry that happened to you. It must have been rather upsetting. I would venture to say, though, that this particular guy sounds like he might have been mentally disturbed. That doesn’t make your experience any less unpleasant, of course, but if he was mentally disturbed it changes the extent of his culpability for his ranting.

If the point is to not allow threats and indimidation, then call it something different. The basic definitions of fighting words irritate me.

I really don’t understand the concept of words that inflict injury just by being uttered. Later on the court said that it included words that “reasonably incite the average person to retaliate”. I find that concept rediculous as well. If people don’t have the self control to not fight someone over mere words than they have other problems. I know that I’m in a minority on this opinion, but I’m ok with that.

Well yea that’s kind of what I was talking about. Before it came out that she was lying it was very big news on the national level.

As to the Long Beach case that started this thread, the verdicts have been released.

Nine found guilty, one 12 year old girl found not guilty.

http://abclocal.go.com/kabc/story?section=local&id=4974324