How come I have to ignore all the vitriol and personal attacks and not respond, but you can’t ignore all the remarks about partisanship?
Regards,
Shodan
Partisan bickering has become the lens through which all political discussions are viewed, whether here on the dope or anywhere else.
This is Clinton’s fault.
If he’d resigned when the Republicans told him to we wouldn’t be having this problem.
I’m not American, and I’m certainly not conservative by American standards, but I can see the issue. It is simply no fun to argue a point when every argument get derailed by the lunatic fringe of the other side. People are here for fun, not work, and so many don’t bother to participate in certain subjects - because it is no longer fun. Or rather, only those whose idea of “fun” is slinging insults bother to participate, and the conversation is the poorer for it.
An example of a non-political topic where this happens continually here is anything to do, however tangentally, with religion. I’m not a believer in any gods myself, certainly I do not identify with any organized religion, but I am very interested in religion from an anthropological point of view; but such topics are very trying to seriously discuss on this board, because they tend to get shut down. The reasonable, valuable posters, those with interesting things to say regardless of their point of view, cease to bother to post on such topics.
Much like the silent majority or republicans, they oft go unheard.
The crazy liberals attacking go largely heard on this board because they are so vocal. In your example of 7 of 10 posters replying with something other than vitriol (while entirely plausible) the three might well have made 4 posts each in short order.
Personally, the only one of the three mentioned that I feel are bat shit crazy is Der. Elucidator used to grate on my nerves but I realized he is actually a funny guy and I give him the respect for shining a funny light on things.
I don’t care too much about partisanship one way or another, but the concept of good faith seems to have been brutally murdered sometime in the last 10 years.
If you take that idiot and half-idiot, and others of their stripe, out of the mix you’ll still have a largely left-leaning SDMB. It’s just a fact. Don’t know why that bothers you so much.
I’m not sure why you would say that when he acknowledges it in the very first sentence of the OP.
I used to be less partisan, but during the Bush years, i watched the conservatives use any gesture of compromise as a club to utterly destroy their opposition. I have become less willing to take what they say on good faith simply because it was abused when they were in power. Now I hear a lot of whining from the right about how liberals aren’t fighting fair, and just have to laugh. Unfortunately, there is still a lot of misplaced liberal guilt around that will cause some on the left to second guess themselves. Ever since the moderates were frog-marched out of the Republican Party, I find what passes for conservatism today to be a barren and evil political philosophy.
Read what I said to spifflog in post #28. If you find it exhausting arguing positions when you are totally outnumbered and your posts frequently get some number of vitriolic hate-filled responses, hey, I sympathize, I’m certainly not going to tell you you’re making things up. And if you find the situation so frustrating that you stop posting, well, that’s certainly your decision, but it would be a shame, and a loss to the SDMB as a whole.
It’s only if you take it one step further and start leveling blanket accusations at the SDMB left as a whole, or hyperbolically claiming that there is no reasoned, polite, respectful debate on the SDMB, that I take issue with it.
Or, sometimes, if a lot of people are telling you you’re wrong, it just means you’re wrong.
Who said you had to ignore vitriol and personal attacks and not respond? However, if you choose to ONLY respond to vitriol and personal attacks, then your oft-stated belief in “the usual suspects” becomes self-fulfillingly true.
I think part of what goes on is this (and this applies to all sides, it’s just magnified when one is in the viewpoint minority): you (generic you) have a belief. You post a basically polite and reasonable statement of that belief. You get 2 respones:
A: “Interesting… I disagree with subpoint 3 or your belief because of reason q and I’d like you to cite some of the statistics you used to support subpoint 5 of your belief”
and
B: “You’re a stupid racist. Your belief is wrong because (idiotic facile point)”
Which one are you going to respond to? Well, everyone (understandably) likes to fight back when they’re insulted. So that makes you want to respond to B. And everyone likes to WIN. So when you see B making an idiotic facile point, you want to pull out your superior brain and squash him like a bug. So you do. And he (being an idiot) responds with more insults and stupid points. Meanwhile, you’re lowering yourself down to his level and probably insulting him back. At the end of the day, no discussion has happened, and the impression you’re left with of wherever this debate took place (ie, the SDMB) is that it’s full of insulting partisan idiots.
I appreciate that, and feel compelled to 'fess up. It’s a trick. Underhanded, sneaky and probably dishonorable. If I argue persuasively and reasonably, with the facts at my fingertips, perhaps I can change your mind. If I can make you laugh, I have already changed your mind.
Why such faith? Because that’s how it was done to me. When I was a very young man, “studying for the gallows”, I was one hundred percent Goldwater, Texan, military brat, Objectivist… Then I started reading stuff like the other Mark Twain, the anti-imperialist humanist mourning his revolutionary country descending into pillage and plunder. And Joseph Heller, and Paul Krassner, and others diverse, perverse, and damn funny. And once I laughed, the cracks began to appear in the granite foundation of my beliefs.
From there, it was but a small step to sex. drugs and rock 'n roll. Well, maybe more a headlong leap, but still… The damage had been done, there was no turning back.
“Laughter is the single most powerful force in history, nothing else can shred an ossified institution into shreds and atoms at a single blast.”
- Mark Twain
Shit. Screwed up the Twain quote. Forgive me, Master, and I will re-read Roughing It for the tenth time as penance. Been a couple years, anyway, about due…
The problem is that the presence of a lot of vitriolic attacks concerning a particular topic means that those who would otherwise respond to the topic with reasoned posts (however much one may disagree with their “reasons”) simply stop doing so, because it ceases to be worthwhile or fun. All that is left are those who positively enjoy the mud-slinging.
I see perfectly well what you are advocating - that those folks shrug their shoulders and soldier on, and ignore the idiots. That would work if there was some sort of motivation for doing it, but what’s the motive if people are posting for their own pleasure?
Agreed. Has anyone else noticed that **Diogenes the Cynic **is, for the most part, being ignored by the veterans?
You realize, don’t you, that not everybody who is a veteran makes a point of letting you know that?
“elucidator, Join Date: Mar 2000” Sorry, maybe I misunderstood you. I would consider you a veteran since you’ve “been here” since March of 2000, or going on roughly 10 years now. Right?
I respond to one, or the other, or both, depending on how I feel. The Usual Suspects, being what they are, ignore all the reasonable stuff and only respond to the snark. Then we get a lot of horsehockey about “Shodan only posts one-line snark” which only means “I didn’t read past the first line”.
But you haven’t answered the question -
Why is it necessary for me to ignore all the much more frequent snark aimed at conservatives, instead of you ignoring what you think is snark aimed at you (even when it isn’t).
You are trying to hold me and other non-liberals to a standard you aren’t willing to live up to yourself.
The only posters whose behavior you can affect is you. If you want reasoned debate, then concentrate on that and ignore the snark that gets sent back at the liberal assholes.
What you are suggesting is “let that other guy insult you, because it bothers me when you give as good or better than you get.” That doesn’t work for me.
Sometimes it’s fun to have calm, reasonable debate. With some Dopers, that’s not possible.
Regards,
Shodan
I could not agree more.