I pit male rapist apologists

The BBQ Pit
1

So, in the last several days, my Facebook feed has become full of Cornell 7 posts, maybe 95-ish percent by women. Any other posts, by men, and comments by men, basically say that [and I am obviously paraphrasing] “pussy is a commodity that falls into the ‘finder’s keeper’s’ convention and, if there just happens to be some pussy available, I and my buds are allowed to partake”.

It’s fucking appalling. I’m a guy (now 67 yrs old) and I even have to question my own behaviour forty years ago when I was single. The most that I ever did was, while making out (or whatever the appropriate term is) with my then, soon-to-be-girlfriend, I slipped my right hand under her shirt, disconnected her bra, and felt around the front. Though she was open to it (it led to the bedroom and her enthusiastic participation), it never occurred to me to ask if my bra-move was okay; this was in 1988. Even then, despite the fact that she was a strong-willed young woman, I still “made the move” without really considering her feelings.

I think that our whole “system” is predicated on most men not giving most women agency when it comes to sex, rather than both participants being equal participants in the agreement process.

I wasn’t great but, ffs, seven participants in a gang-rape and fifty online spectators? WTF? At the very least one of the fifty could have called 911, but no-one did.

Even if the evidence hasn’t been truly considered (and I really don’t know the facts of this), how the fuck can people think that seven participants in a sex act (again, assuming rape has not yet been proven), with fifty virtual onlookers is “not fucking guilty” of something. The very fact that 57 men were willingly involved and did sweet fuck all to help, justifies every bit of anger that women feel about this.

I’ve also seen some remarks about some BS percentage of men who get assaulted by women. Seriously? My wife and I were in a restaurant talking about this, and watching the waitresses and pondering what would happen if one of them assaulted me. Here’s what could happen - I could simply fall on the assaulting women, and that would be the end of the assault. This shit is fucking disgusting.

The BS attempts by men to rationalize what happened is a fucking disgrace to my half (the male half) of fucking, so-called, “civilization”.

If that many guys can’t see anything wrong, to the extent that they try to rationalize this, if I was female, I wouldn’t trust any guy, ever.

2

I agree with everything but the last paragraph.

I would say no woman should ever trust a frat.
But your blanket statement is just too much.

These are assholes, that are enabled by our internet culture to post their stupidity.

3

Good pitting. The Cornell incident is exactly what “rape culture” means. Rape is advertised, justified, trivialized, rationalized, excused, and even defended, by those that took part, those that received those messages, those that witnessed it, those that found out later, and those discussing it now. And it takes a national outcry for an actual investigation and prosecution.

There were a dozen and more opportunities to stop this mass rape, and then to report it while it occurred, and then to report it after, that were missed. Without rape culture, this would have stopped well before it happened.

4

I get what you’re saying, however, I know that I’m an ethical guy who would never mistreat someone simply because of her physiology and genetic structure, but no woman actually does or has any way of knowing that. It sucks, but there it is.

I’m 6’ 3" and 220 lbs and I have a deep voice; with the exception of crack dens or the kill zone in Ukraine, I can almost go anywhere I want, day or night. If an unarmed woman attacks me, I might come out of the situation with a couple of mild bruises.

I have seen, possibly out of maybe 100 male comments, one or two sympathetic comments from men. The rest tried to justify and rationalized what happened. I’m a guy and I am appalled.

As I mentioned in my OP, this thing has got me questioning my behaviour from forty years ago. The entire “system” is fucked up. IMO, no guy should even be trying to “make a move”. Just fucking ask. Back to my example - “are you okay with my hand back here? Should I unclasp it?” In retrospect, it’s not fucking hard and it shouldn’t be based on some “conquest”-based thing.

And I hate to say this, and maybe I don’t speak for all males, but, there is an implied lack of agency on the part of the woman - the target - eg “maybe I’ll get lucky tonight”. Does that phrase even consider a woman’s decision? Or is it predicated on the assumption that maybe we (men) can bamboozle or manipulate the poor woman into having our cocks stuck into her? Or “hey, I get to ‘cop a feel’ of her tits”. WTF is that all about?

5

I agree that rape is horrible and the posts, esp on twitter saying it wasnt really rape.
But it seems very clinical to have to ask someone youre dating if you can do this or that.

6

But maybe the whole “spontaneity” thing is a fucking crock. In my bra unclasping example, would it really be too clinical to ask “is this ok”?

The non-clinical, just go for it traditional method, assumes that the guy is “in control”. Why is that necessary or ok? The sex thing should be (maybe not explicitly or overtly) assumed to be agreed upon by both, not something that the pursuer/man wins.

I have actually come to believe that the whole system, if you will, is male-centric, dishonest, and fucked. Much of this, I believe, is based on an assumption that females are somehow dainty, weak and inferior. People, regardless of gender or whatever else, should be deemed to have equal agency. The fucking “game” should have been changed several hundred years ago.

7

There are reasonable ways to verify that the person you’re with is comfortable proceeding that don’t involve “May I put my hand inside your shirt?” “Now may I unzip your pants?” “Now can I touch your nipple?” etc.

A simple, “I’m really enjoying this, if you are not comfortable and want to stop, tell me now or at any point” should do it. And then listen (not just to words but body language too).

For obvious reasons we tend to see these situations as a male making moves on a female, but whoever’s taking the lead should be saying that to the person they’re with regardless of gender.

8

What?
In most of the world, women were little more than chattel then. We’ve come a long way but still have a long way to go.

Several hundred years ago is just lashing out.

Hell, 50 years ago date rape was almost impossible to prosecute.

Oh, and child brides are only being done away with as we speak. Speaking of little more than chattel.

9

I went to college 50+ years ago and the issue of campus rape and cover-up of same was a thing back then. I think the only difference now is that you’ve got the internet giving assholery a bigger audience. It may also be that certain national environs may encourage this sort of behavior.

10

My sincere apologies. Let’s just say several tens of thousands of years ago, or whenever things went south with our species (and I’m not being sarcastic here). It’s just that this is so, so fucked. I guess my point is that, once we became sentient humans rather than advanced apes, and decided that we weren’t animals anymore, this crap should have stopped.

The salient thing that, IMO, separates us from the other animals, is that we can over-ride our instincts. Well, if a gang of western-culture-based university students can’t do that, then they’re fucking animals and should have to do a lot more than “write an essay”.

11

Well that’s different. It is possible a few early civilizations were not male dominated with women 2nd class citizens, but by 2000 years ago probably none.

Not East, West or New World.

12

Back in 2016, I actually started a thread of schools and the church getting a pass on the law. It seems that in the Cornell case that the “campus police” were involved. Someone please explain why the fuck this is even allowed. If someone gets raped in a MacDonalds, they don’t call the MacDonalds Police and then let MacDonalds bury the whole thing (by making the McRapists write essays). The whole campus police thing is fucking utter bullshit and I honestly don’t understand why it’s even permitted.

13

My basic point is that, at this time, there should be no excuse.

14

Probably. We really should be progressing a lot quicker.

Honestly I think the frat system should be ended.
Churches should have no exceptions.

But, I feel like we’re actually regressing of late.

15

I don’t disagree with you. But, in addition to that, I don’t think that women’s equality and agency has ever been considered in the whole romantic game. Maybe the whole societal human mating structure is grossly outdated and fucked up.

16

Maybe this is off topic. If so, a mod can split it off to its own thread.

I’ve seen a lot of condemnation of Cornell. Which they deserve.

But I have seen anybody talking about the local police and DA. They seem to be getting a pass. Or at least they haven’t been facing the level of public condemnation that the college has.

I’m not defending the college. But rape is a crime. If a group of rapists committed a crime and it was reported to the local police (which is what happened here), it was the police department’s job to make the arrests and the DA’s job to lead the prosecutions.

I feel that the local law enforcement deserves at least as much public condemnation as Cornell does.

17

I think the local DA was slammed pretty hard by the state. It isn’t often the state will step in like they did.

Not sure if the DA is actually suffering for it. But the condemnation was unusual.

18

This might be a function of the people you know combined with your algorithm. I haven’t seen any men in my Facebook feed who have tried to rationalize and justify what happened. Not a single one. I’m not going to argue those people don’t exist, but I’m not seeing a flood of them like you are for some reason.

I don’t think you need to question your behavior from 40 years ago. From what you’ve described, you were sucking face and you got to second base with a partner who was fully participating, so I don’t think you have a lot to be worried about.

Back when you were dating, did women ever initiate anything with you without getting explicit, verbal permission beforehand?

Sure, unless that person is a rapist I guess.

19

I do not know whom you have been talking to that thinks rape is OK. However, people also have to take the initiative, whether at a party or in a public place or anywhere else, to actively intervene to stop sexual harassment or rape, possible risking an altercation, and perhaps not everybody has the basic common decency to do it?

20

I have always asked if something is okay, and it doesn’t have to be a big conversation. Just a hand somewhere and asking “Is this okay?” It takes 2 seconds. It seems weird not to.

Then again I’m the kind of guy who is generally cautious with women. I’ve never asked a woman out unless I’m really sure she likes me. (Though I’ve been wrong about that of course.) My first girlfriend asked me to prom; that’s how we started dating. I know that has meant I missed out on potential romances over the years, but in retrospect that’s got to be better than being in a situation where I’m pressuring a woman without knowing it.

I really don’t get people who excuse the shit at Cornell. They might as well be from another planet.