It’s a tricky situation. Both the school and the police (of whatever department) have privacy rules that they need to follow, which prevents official information from getting out. But social media, of course, isn’t reliable either, and comes with a host of unknown biases built in.
Non-profit origanizations (charities, educational instiututions, churches, etc., etc.) are typically exempt from a lot of taxes. The orphanage from The Blues Brothers shouldn’t have been threatened with shutting down because of back taxes.
And honestly, sometimes there’s tension between the university and the town. Oberlin College went to war with Gibson’s Bakery (Wiki link) over three of their students who were arrested for shoplifting and assault at the town business. Campus police in some places tend to go easy no students which probably doesn’t make townies too happy. We had a fairly robust conversation about it at the Dope back in 2019.
Terry Crews talks about an incident where a producer groped him. For those unfamiliar with Crews, he’s a former professional football player turned actor, and he’s a big, big man. The type of guy who could twist most other men into a pretzel if he wanted. When he was groped, he felt as though he couldn’t retaliate because of the power differential between him and the producer. And there was the added complication of Crews being Black, and being worried any action on his part would be held against him.
Which makes sense. If I’m get robbed in Bryant, Arkansas why would the Little Rock Police Department show up to take my report?
Back in my single days, the way I did it was a mix of “Tell me if you want me to stop”, “Is this ok?” and doing whatever it was that I was talking about. If it wasn’t, I’d get a no, or get my hand redirected. No harm no foul.
What was confusing however, was the notion of when. More than once, I’d try something early while making out or whatever and get a no, and then after a while more, I’d get a yes. Which wasn’t exactly a clear message to a young man; was I just being pushy? Was it a question of her not being sure? Was it a question of not quite being in the mood? I suspect it was different each time, and it wasn’t necessarily easy to tell. And the lesson was “Keep trying, but take no for an answer”, which was still problematic if she didn’t feel like she could say no for whatever reason.
At least around here (Texas), the campus police are legitimate, licensed, law enforcement officers just like the local PD. There are some weird laws that let public entities organize their own police departments- universities typically have their own, but so do ones like transit authorities, school districts, airports, port authorities, and so forth. They’re all licensed by the state and have specific and limited jurisdictions that pertain to their organizations. My school had campus security, who were just rent-a-cops that didn’t carry guns, etc… and the actual campus police who were armed and real police.
I’ve characterized our current political climate as “The Patriarchy Strikes Back” and also as patriarchy’s last stand. That probably sounds internally inconsistent but wounded animals are dangerous and lash out violently. Anyway, the frat boys openly reveling in their self-declared right to rape and sexual assault feels like part of it.
Like the OP, my feed is full of angry and determined feminist women, and most of them actually want to engage with males, to ask WTF and to have an impact.
And are the male responses that you see positive and supportive, or are they like the ones that I see, which are toxic and dismissive?
What fucking boggles my mind is that not one of the fifty guys in that online discussion even bothered to call 911 (or so it seems).
A mixture, with the toxic and dismissive guys mostly getting their shredded asses handed to them by vehemently pissed off women. These are fast-moving FB groups with names like Fuck the Patriarchy.
I’ve seen some of this. Regardless, however of whether or not they get their asses shredded online, it really does show a certain level of male disdain, contempt and toxicity. The fact that the presence of fifty online onlookers, as it were, didn’t anger almost all male FB commenters - who seemed to think that this wasn’t really an issue - is disgusting.
That is exactly right. I run outside regularly, and am certainly not afraid to do so. And yet … I am always watching. If a car slows down ahead of me (or, god forbid, pulls over, or makes a U-turn and comes back toward me) I am immediately wary and start evaluating whether additional cars are around, how fast/which way should I run if I were pursued from an auto or on foot … Not to overdramatize, I certainly don’t live in fear. At all. But I PAY ATTENTION all the time. And I think that is pretty much the norm for women.
That’s what I’ve always assumed and it must be exhausting after a while, even if nothing ever happens. I’ve somehow been able to imagine, to the best extent possible - bearing in mind that I’m a 6’ 3", 220 lb man who’s reasonably fit - what it would feel like if the other half of the population was maybe 25% bigger, heavier, and stronger than me and comprised some members who would want to shove something into my backside.
Something I really enjoy doing is going out by myself from time to time, either to a coffee place, a bar, or a restaurant, just to kill an hour or so with a book. I can do that and nobody will bug me, however, in my imaginary scenario if I was at all attractive to that other population, I would be constantly being hit on. I wouldn’t be able to go for a walk without having to watch my back. I have no doubt that it would fucking suck to have to live like that, yet half the population does, with the possibility of very dire consequences.
I’ve also seen, recently, tons of FB things about “things I have to tell my daughters to keep them safe…”, including such banal and mundane (to me) things such as how to safely get to your car in a mall parking lot at night, how to walk from whatever to your home while having your keys between your fingers, and much, much more, as if this is just something normal that you have to do in order to lower your chances of an attack. This is an absolutely appalling state of affairs.
I do a lot of bicycling and I don’t have to consider anything like that.
In Ottawa in 2003, for example, a young woman, Ardeth Wood, was murdered while cycling along a path that is usually heavily used by all walks of life. From the Wikipedia article ( Murder of Ardeth Wood - Wikipedia ):
“In the summer of 2003, Wood was on leave from her doctoral studies and was visiting her family in Ottawa. She was last seen on August 6 riding her bicycle on a path along the Sir George Ettiene Parkway in the city’s east end. News of her disappearance was reported widely in Canada, and the entire city of Ottawa rallied around a search effort that involved the police, the military and hundreds of volunteers. Her body was found in the woods around Green’s Creek on August 11.[3] Her clothes were never found and no foreign DNA was found on her body. Ottawa police received many tips that a man on a bicycle was seen luring women into the woods along the path where Wood was last seen.”
Shit like this is something that I, personally, never have to worry about.
A lot of men think the default is that any woman is fair game. I was at a pub with a group of friends, all male, for trivia night on those bar-height chairs and a drunk stranger came up behind me and wrapped his arms around me to hug me. I jumped up and yelled at him. My friends had no idea that this was something that women deal with. Thankfully less common nowadays, but the underlying assumption is still there for a lot of men that women are somehow fungible and without agency.
Sounds to me like it would turn every makeout session into a barrage of questions. Alternatively, one could just pay attention to how your partner was reacting to each mini-advance, and if she’s reacting less than enthusiastically, you dial it back. Good old nonverbal communication ftw.
Back in 80-84 it was known in the uni I went to that if invited to a frat party, bring a 6 pack of beer [wine coolers for me] and take one, leave the rest for the other people, and NEVER EVER let it out of your hand, always recap it, do not drink or eat anything you did not bring for 3 of the frats [and one of the sororities was also known for helping out one of the frats by drugging pledge sisters]
My mind-reading isn’t very good. I can’t always see the other person’s face. Proceeding without talking gives the other person the impression that talking about the situation (such as to verbally express discomfort) is discouraged. This seems like a very bad philosophy to have.
Remember there is a middle ground between assuming that your partner is okay with it (because that’s all you’re doing) and interrupting a moment with a detailed discussion.
Sometimes just asking once if this is okay opens the door to let your partner know that they can speak up without judgement if things are going farther than they want or in a direction they don’t like. I’ve been married for over 13 years with my wife and still don’t take this for granted.
I think that’s a bad analogy. The problem is that since the campus police work for the campus administration, they may see their job, to a certain extent, as being about making sure things don’t happen that cause problems for the administration. How they internalize that can make a big difference in how they respond to a case like this.
Another thing is that the local police are much more likely to have personnel experienced in working with rape victims than the (likely much smaller) campus police do. One thing that came out in this case, IIRC, is that while being interviewed by the campus police, she said she felt she was raped, but the r-word didn’t make it into the written statement that went to the local prosecutor, and that was part of the reason the prosecutor didn’t feel the case was worth pursuing.
Are you kissing her while you slip your hand underneath her shirt? Is she still kissing back with passion? Or does something seem to be missing there? Are her hands exploring you as yours are exploring her? Or is she not doing much there? What’s her body doing? What are her vocal expressions like? If she’d been giving mmmm’s of pleasure, and now she’s not, yeah that’s a red flag, time to pull back, even though she hasn’t said a word. IME, my partner’s always been saying plenty before it’s ever arisen to the level of words.
I mean, in a situation like that, my desire for my partner was always feeding off my partner’s desire for me, and if that kinda dropped off in little ways, it was like the fuel for my desire just wasn’t there, and so things wound down, at least for that encounter.
No, that’s exactly the behavior that we’ve been talking about being problematic.
I understand the problem, but the cold, hard truth is that crimes occurring on campus are typically in a different jurisdiction from those committed in town. Calling the town police is the equivalent of calling another city’s police department and the end result is you’ll just have to live with the campus police doing their jobs anyway. So advising someone to call the town police probably isn’t all that helpful.
I’m with you there. In addition to what you said about having an incentive to avoid problems for the administration, I’m not sure how many campus police officers are equipped to deal with major crimes like sexual assault.
Some did (eg “I want you inside me”) though many didn’t. And if I am interpreting her quiet acceptance as acceptance when, in fact, there was discomfort and resignation, that’s obviously a bad thing.
As well, until three years ago, I was undiagnosed autistic so misinterpretation was always a strong possibility.
So, a “is this okay” such a bad thing?
Explicit permission doesn’t have to be verbal. I’m a college phys ed teacher (for 6 weeks each year) and help teach a square dance class. We explicitly teach consent. How do you initiate a swing or a twirl? How do you accept? How do you decline? None of that is verbal. All of it is explicit and clear.
And it can be semi-verbal, like:
In my current circles, it’s common to initiate physical contact with a verbal request, “would you like a hug”, socially, or in more intimate circumstances, “wanna make out?” But i can’t imagine anyone asks with words before every single action.
And if your partner says, “sure”, when you invite with, “do you wanna make out?”, you can put your hand under your partner’s clothing and see how they respond to it. If they lean in, make encouraging noises, and explore your body with their hands, they are consenting. If they freeze, or pull back, they aren’t.
This is only achieved by the deliberate legal act of setting up an enclave within a city where the city police do not have jurisdiction. And there are school, especially private schools, where no such arrangement and the campus falls under the jurisdiction of the town, lock,stock and barrel.