I pit people who can't appreciate wildlife unless they can kill it

The BBQ Pit
61

[QUOTE=Miller]
What Exit?, I don’t know how much of an advantage white fur would confer in a roadkill situation. If a deer’s standing in the middle of the road at night, I can usually see them perfectly well with my headlights, regardless of what color they are. The problem is when the damned thing jumps out of a bush right in front of you, or is on the other side of a blind curve, and there’s not enough time or room to stop before you hit it. The deer could be glowing neon green, and it wouldn’t help it’s long term health prospects in those situations. Besides which, the coloration was simply the aspect of albinism that most easily illustrated the survival drawbacks of the condition. There’s a host of related health problems that are also evolutionary drawbacks.
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I find it hard to see deer on the side of the road. In my neck area, deer are mostly killed by cars. A white or light colored deer is a lot easier to see at a distance and it does increase the time to slow down. When I see deer, I slow down, in case they might suddenly dart across the road.

However, this was just an example to counter your absolutes. If albino deer have enough medical issues, then the situation is self-correcting anyway and hunters don’t need to do the deer species any favor in weeding them out.

Jim

62

[QUOTE=Miller]
Just because you can’t hold your own in a debate is no justification for inventing arguments for the other side.
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Just because nobody else agrees with me doesn’t mean I’m not holding my own, but you’re welcome to tell yourself that. I think concluding that albinism equates with “very sick” is the same kind of black and white thinking.

63

[QUOTE=Sequent]
You don’t know that it was easier to kill.
[/quote]

Yeah, you’re right, I have no idea of knowing if it would be easier to kill a bright white deer in the middle of a forest in early November, as compared to a brown deer in similar circumstances. What an enormous assumption I made there!

I know that it was sick because it was a fucking albino!

I guess I should take that as a “No,” then?

64

[QUOTE=Miller]
Yeah, you’re right, I have no idea of knowing if it would be easier to kill a bright white deer in the middle of a forest in early November, as compared to a brown deer in similar circumstances. What an enormous assumption I made there!
[/QUOTE]
I have to agree that Miller has made a safe assumption here. After all, there must be a reason that deer didn’t evolve to be white in the first place.

65

Miller and Sarahfeena, I guess I don’t understand your objections to the OP. He isn’t pitting hunting. He’s pitting the attitude expressed by the Albino Deer Slayer. I’m not against hunting per se, either. And while I do think getting excited over killing animals is weird and disturbing, I’m not trying to ban anyone from doing it.

I do think some of the arguments in this thread are red herrings. Gloating over killing a rare deer is okay as long as its albino and therefore “very, very sick”? Not only is that a non sequiter, but it’s hyperbole. The deer was obviously not doing too bad because it apparently made it to adulthood. And there’s no reason to assume that it hadn’t reproduced, which by Darwin’s yardstick is all that counts. That’s not too shabby for an animal that was congenitally “very very sick.”

I’ma back up out of this thread because I’m not even all that passionate about this. Consider all of this “just sayin’”.

66

[QUOTE=Sarahfeena]
I have to agree that Miller has made a safe assumption here. After all, there must be a reason that deer didn’t evolve to be white in the first place.
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That was the past, the automobile issue is only a recent phenom, generally evolution does not work that quickly for large animals. If a lighter color proves to be a successful survival trait, then eventually deer will become lighter colored. Instead, survival might just favor deer that look both ways before crossing a road. :wink:

Jim

67

[QUOTE=Miller]
I guess I should take that as a “No,” then?
[/QUOTE]

Yes, Miller, that’s exactly how you should take it. That’s precisely what I’m saying. One snowflake == Arctic region. You nailed me!
As fun as this has been, I have to get back to work now. But feel free to claim debate victory. After all, if I don’t respond, that must necessarily mean I have no counter-argument.

68

[QUOTE=Sequent]
Humanity is always clean and merciful, and nature is always savage and cruel. Riiight. You and Miller should definitely get together, Gonorrhea, since apparently you both see things in black and white.
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Because that’s exactly what I said.

:rolleyes:

My point is, you’re going on and on about how cruel this is, and about how it’s unnatural and blah blah blah. I’m saying, “nature isn’t always pretty.”

69

[QUOTE=Sarahfeena]
I can accept the fact that not everyone is like me, and some people do enjoy it, and I can also accept the fact that I have no basis for believing that it’s wrong to enjoy it.
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That applies to all of our morals, doesn’t it? Basis for morals = whatever we decide is moral.

70

[QUOTE=What Exit?]
I find it hard to see deer on the side of the road. In my neck area, deer are mostly killed by cars. A white or light colored deer is a lot easier to see at a distance and it does increase the time to slow down. When I see deer, I slow down, in case they might suddenly dart across the road.
[/quote]

I find it hard to see deer by the side of the road, too, but that’s usually because all of the bushes in the way.

But, I’ll concede that there are some circumstances in which having white fur can be an advantage. I still maintain that, overall, it would be a disadvantage for almost any species of wild animal, and Minnesotan deer in particular.

Except that one of the ways the situation is self-correcting is by making the animal more vulnerable to predators, including humans. My original point is that albino deers are sick (not because they’re white, but for other reasons), and it’s beneficial for predators to remove sick animals from the population (which is made easier with albinos, as they’re generally easier for predators to spot).

71

[QUOTE=Shagnasty]
WTF! Have you ever been deer hunting? It is hard, cold, and takes lots of practice and dedication.
[/quote]
Maybe for you. I grew up in the UP of Michigan, Wisconsin, and Minnesota. Yes, I’ve been deer hunting. Never got one myself. Never had any intention to. It was hanging out in the woods, to me. Hard, cold, practice, dedication? Nah, not so much. It is cold, and I suppose you have to be patient. But hard? Nope.

It can be as hard or as easy as you want to make it. Deer hang out in my back yard. Yeah, I know, you can’t normally shoot deer in your backyard, but still. C’mon, it ain’t hard.

Growing up in the UP, I was shooting at cans and bottles on the back fence at age 5 or 6. As I said, yes, I’ve been deer hunting. We used to think it was fun running from bears when we were kids. We’re talking north country.

As an adult, I was in the Army. Yeah, I’ve shot weapons. Yeah, you can teach a chimp to do it. I served with a few in basic training, I think.

Look, I’m not anti-hunting. Here in the states, I’m somewhat anti-hunter, because I know first hand the practice and dedication you speak of often involves nothing more than a gun, a pickup truck and a case of beer.

When I was in Germany I respected the Jäger there. They have to undergo real training and practically have a degree in Naturalism before you’re allowed to go out shooting stuff.

In general, if you want to go out and kill something and eat it and it’s not endangered, I got no problem with that. I’ve eaten enough venison in my life I ain’t complaining how it got on my plate.

72

[QUOTE=you with the face]
That applies to all of our morals, doesn’t it? Basis for morals = whatever we decide is moral.
[/QUOTE]
You miss the point. My point was that a person doesn’t have to enjoy hunting to defend it as a practice. Your post implied that the people defending it are hunters who get a thrill from hunting, and I was showing that this was not the case.

In answer to your other post, the reason I got into the discussion was not because I necessarily disagreed with the initial OP, it was because of the OP’s later statements about the interactions between humans and nature, which I believe to be off-base.

73

[QUOTE=Miller]
Except that one of the ways the situation is self-correcting is by making the animal more vulnerable to predators, including humans. My original point is that albino deers are sick (not because they’re white, but for other reasons), and it’s beneficial for predators to remove sick animals from the population (which is made easier with albinos, as they’re generally easier for predators to spot).
[/QUOTE]

While I agree with your argument in general, I think it might be better to characterize an albino deer as “defective” rather than sick per se. Albinism in general does not aid in survival in most species, and in fact is detrimental by making them much more vulnerable to predators. But they will probably not die on their own (which is actually part of the problem, since if there are no predators or hunters around they will perpetuate themselves).

As an ecologist and environmentalist (which are not the same thing) I see nothing whatever wrong in a hunter shooting an albino deer, and in fact I think it is positive for the local population and the species as a whole. While “rare,” this rarity is not valuable in any way. Such individuals are rare exactly because their condition is detrimental in natural circumstances, and they are ordinarily eliminated by natural selection. You might as well object to killing a deer born with three legs because it was “rare.”

There are some populations of White-tailed Deer that have developed a high frequency of albinism because they are in areas protected from hunting, and where predators are absent. But these verge on being domestic animals. If predators ever return to the area, the population will likely be decimated.

74

[QUOTE=Quartz]

I have no problem with shooting ordinary animals; endangered species are another matter.
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Agreed. You most definitely want to whack them with a knife or an ice pick; gives them a sporting chance. :slight_smile:

75

[QUOTE=Guinastasia]
Riddle me this, Buttmunch, how is it better letting “nature sort it out” by letting wolves savage a deer by ripping it’s throat, rather than oh, say killing it instantly with a clean shot?

Because that’s what I’m getting from your argument.
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You have reading comprehension problems if that’s what you’re getting from his argument. And the “Buttmunch” was gratuitous and idiotic.

If a wolf pack can catch and kill a deer, then it was probably ready to be culled from the herd. Wolves don’t trophy hunt. I think that’s the OP’s point. Humans sometimes kill deer for food, but unlike wolves, they also sometimes kill just for aesthetics or bragging rights or home decorating, as with this albino deer, or a stag with a big rack. I think that is what the OP is decrying, and I think it’s a valid opinion. Calling him “Buttmunch” just makes you sound incongruously rude. I realize this is the Pit, but the thread was otherwise civil.

In some states, such asTennessee, Iowa,Wisconsin, and Montana, killing albino deer is illegal and they are protected as an endangered species. This is not true in all states, though, just some. Whether you agree with the reasoning behind this protection or not, it exists, because these deer are considered rare and some people want to preserve them. I think the idea behind the ban on hunting them is maintaining genetic diversity.

While it’s true that albinos are prone to malformations and poor vision, so they don’t usually get to ripe old age, this was a 6 point buck, so it was obviously pretty fit. Their main reason for not surviving to an old age seems not to be lack of fitness physically but lack of camouflage due to their coloration. Albinism is a naturally occurring mutation, and the most common types are not associated with mortality and/or morbidity outside of cutaneous sensitivity to solar irradiation. Thus, it’s safe to say that not all albinos are sickly and not viable, and in fact most aren’t. To assert so, without so much as a cite, is simply incorrect. Thus (no big surprise here), Miller’s asssertion that this was definitely an unhealthy animal who was not fit to live seems not to be supported by any facts in general, and definitely none in this specific instance.

I agree that it’s sickening to think that someone killed an animal considered endangered and which is protected in other states just for a trophy. That’s clearly what happened in the OP’s linked story. That animal was not killed for food, which I have no problem with. It was killed to decorate someone’s den wall. Pretty awful.

76

[QUOTE=Shagnasty]
Other hunters even make things much more difficult on themselves by choosing a bow and arrow or a black power waepon.
[/QUOTE]

snertle

77

Paragraph one: chastisment of another poster for a gratuitous insult.

Paragraph four: gratuitous insult aimed at another poster.

Must be a post from Rubystreak.

78

[QUOTE=Rubystreak]
In some states, such asTennessee, Iowa,Wisconsin, and Montana, killing albino deer is illegal and they are protected as an endangered species. This is not true in all states, though, just some. Whether you agree with the reasoning behind this protection or not, it exists, because these deer are considered rare and some people want to preserve them. I think the idea behind the ban on hunting them is maintaining genetic diversity.
[/QUOTE]

Since albino deer are not a separate species, it would be absurd to protect them as being endangered. And not hunting them for the reason of “preserving genetic diversity” has to be one of the most idiotic things I have ever heard. I say this as someone who has worked for the New Zealand Wildlife Service working to preserve some of the most genuinely endangered species in the world, where genetic diversity is a real problem.

There is really no more reason to protect albino deer from hunting than there would be to protect one that was born blind. The only reason albinos may be protected is because they are considered pretty. Fine if you want to keep them as domestic animals, but there is no reason to protect them in a wild population.

79

[QUOTE=levdrakon]
Actually, most people have to have some sort of education so they can get a job and earn money so they can go to the store and buy hunks of beef.
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Sometimes they have to drive through blizzards to get there, too.

Maybe, but we’ve already wiped out most of the Indians, so that shouldn’t be a problem.
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Yeah, we appreciated the heck outta them, didn’t we?

80

[QUOTE=Miller]
Paragraph four: gratuitous insult aimed at another poster.
[/QUOTE]

Perhaps you can point it out to me. I seem to be unable to see it, most likely due to browser issues. It must be my browser, after all, right? You wouldn’t just make shit up.