It’s not easy when news stories about the afore mentioned roofiecolatas are much more sensational than news stories about thirty guys who live in the same house and get along with each other. There are problems with the greek system, but there are good things, too.
I like to think I joined (lo those many years ago) for the right reason. These guys were my friends, and many still are after twelve years.
Agreed on all counts. I have one brother as a current client, and am going to a White Sox game with three others in the next playoff round (hopefully).
Please sir may I have another!
So I got to live in the dorms and my apartment for free?
If you’re not sure that anyone will like you (or you’ll like them), why go to all the effort to get in to begin with? Sorry–I just don’t understand the appeal of the lifestyle.
Are you seriously saying that you joined a frat to learn common household renovaton skills? Or is that the only “perk” that comes with fraternal living? Funny how noone who is Greek here has mentioned charitable outreach that is supposed to be a big part of membership-but again, I went to college in the '80’s–perhaps houses no longer bother with fund raising etc. If anything, that is one of the best reasons to join, but maybe it’s no longer a requirement.
High horse? What high horse? I related some stories that I have. I have not come out and decried the whole system or demanded that it be abolished.
I just don’t see the point of it all. I think that many houses start with good intentions that get (or got) lost along the way. And they can be insular, narrow and elitist. Alot of Greeks give Greeks a bad name–and I find it foolish that that is not acknowledged here.
Yes, that’s what I said. People who don’t join fraternities get free student housing. :rolleyes:
[QUOTE=moonstarssun]
If you’re not sure that anyone will like you (or you’ll like them), why go to all the effort to get in to begin with?
How well can you know someone in eight weeks? We try to pick a group of guys we think we will like, but plenty of guys make great impressions during rush but turn into jerks during pledging.
Lke I mentioned, most guys at my college eventually join one of the 35 fraternities. The first thing alumni from my college ask each other is “oh what house were you in?” They are a big part of my particular college and quite frankly, if you weren’t in one at my school, I think you missed out on a big part of campus life.
And it’s not like once you’re in a house you write off your old friends. A fraternity that only parties with itself is pretty stupid.
Because it’s fun if you don’t take it too seriously.
Lke I mentioned, most guys at my college eventually join one of the 35 fraternities. The first thing alumni from my college ask each other is “oh what house were you in?” They are a big part of my particular college and quite frankly, if you weren’t in one at my school, I think you missed out on a big part of campus life.
And it’s not like once you’re in a house you write off your old friends. A fraternity that only parties with itself is pretty stupid.
I was a “sorority girl” in college.
First, to say that it’s not being acknowledged here that some Greeks give Greeks a bad name is ridiculous. That’s what this entire thread is about.
Second, while joining a fraternity or sorority may not have been your choice or fall within your interests, they are not pointless organizations. When I was in high school, one of my favorite teachers died of cancer. I went to her funeral, where her sorority sisters were sitting vigil over her casket. It was a truly touching show of friendship and love. When I went away to school, I decided to check out the Greek system. When I first started college, I was painfully shy and introverted. Through my sorority, I gained a ton of confidence and public speaking skills. I eventually became president of my sorority and learned invaluable skills related to managing people and a business. We did (and still do) have charitable causes. Ours was focused on helping children - not through raising money (although that was part of it), but through actual interaction with kids who didn’t have a lot of adult interaction. Those experiences were incredibly rewarding, also. But, besides all that, it was fun. We had parties, met guys, went to bars, did girlie things, and shared some incredible years. When I got married, my bridesmaids were my sister-in-law and two of my sorority sisters. We’ve remained best friends and have been through marriages, divorces, births, deaths, and a million other experiences.
Can you get these things in other ways - from other organizations or just on your own? Sure. No argument. I chose to go a different route. You certainly wouldn’t say the basketball team is pointless just because you can gain teamwork skills and exercise in other ways and some of the members are dicks.
I’ve always found it interesting when people are so vehemently opposed to the Greek system. If you don’t like it, don’t join.
I am not “vehemently” against the greek system.
I expressing a fairly mild point that I don’t see the point of the extra money and the groupthink mentality. I also have a distaste for anyone putting themselves on “approval” for a week --and we haven’t even started on the hazing. What say you to hazing? All good fun? Or potentially deadly peer pressure?
It is not a route that I would recommend to my almost college bound daughter, but if she goes thru rush and picks a house, that is her path. If she did pledge–I hope she has a great experience. Sadly, I know gilrs who didn’t-that is my point.
My grandmother was a friends with her sorority sisters until she died-and I think that is wonderful. The opportunities are there–all I’m saying is that I don’t see the majority of Greeks taking advantage of them. How many join alumni or alumnae groups? I think it’s great if it has become a lifelong enjoyment for you. but there are downsides–and that is all I’m saying.
Are you saying that bitchery and backstabbing didn’t go on in your house? That cliques didn’t form etc? All this may be true of the dorms as well, but to a much lesser degree.Having been to 2 different universities for my education, on neither campus was there a Libby Hall vs Farrand Hall mindset, for example. But there is plenty of interhouse rivalry. Have at it, but why assume that all people desire that or are jealous if they aren’t a part of it? IMO, Greeks are concentrated essence of high school–obviously, your experience was different.
But I stand by my contention that alot of sorority girls are shallow, narcissistic, entitled people. My SIL, for one, but that’s another thread.
One more time–there are good people in the Greek system–and just as many assholes. Simple, obvious point, really.
Ah crap, we’ve got ourselves another CU-Boulder alumn…
Anyway, you probably haven’t heard about how inter-dorm relationships here on the campus have degraded. Starting with the IBCL (Inter-Building Condom Launcher) arms race of the early 1990’s, the residence halls have been living under constant threat of pummeling with condoms filled with two gallons of water. In 1993, Libby introduced a LUFCOL (Libby Ultra-Far Condom Launcher) which enabled them to hit any target in Kittredge or Hale Earth-Sciences with 1 meter accuracy. Now the entire campus lives under fear that they’ll wake up to find the entire campus covered in broken lumped up shards of latex and a vile sticky film of water and condom lube. Political hubris and fear have taken us to the point that there are 2.3 water-filled condoms for every square meter of the campus. The propaganda and rhetoric between halls has increased to the point where Libby refers to Farrand’s international study residential program as traitorous, Baker’s environmental studies residential program as the work of a bunch of dirty, middle aged hippies with socks on under their Tevas, and everyone else calls Libby the neo-fascists.
Yeah, it’s sad.
My uni didn’t have fraternities or sororities. Frankly, you are all speaking a foreign language!
I’m opposed to hazing. My sorority didn’t and doesn’t haze.
I would say that there was no more “bitchery” in my house than there was in my all-women’s dorm I lived in freshman year. There were certainly more cliques in my dorm because we weren’t all there as friends, just dorm-mates. I think interhouse rivalry is dependant on which school you went to. There were certain houses that had rivalries on my campus, but, so what? It didn’t amount to anything more than good competition during the Greek Week softball game.
Who are attributing this opinion to? I hope not me, because that’s not at all what I said. All I’m saying is having a “distaste” for the Greek system and seeing it as “pointless” makes about as much sense as saying the basketball team or the marching band are distasteful or pointless (both of which, by the way, had hazing rituals on my campus).
Huh, so it’s just like real life, isn’t it? Name me one organization that doesn’t have some percentage of assholes in it. I guess all organizations are pointless.
Like I said before, if you don’t like it, don’t join. I didn’t have any particular interest in the group that made solar powered cars to race. I didn’t feel it necessary to put down the members or make a blanket statement about the worthlessness of the club. I simply didn’t show up for the meetings.
No, those organizations have the puspose of either music or an athletic endeavor. Fraternities and sororities have no other apparent purpose beyond drinking and socializing. The “purposes” which they pay lip service to such as promoting the “complete man”, chivalry, philanthropy, etc., seem to get rolled over on the way to forming a social club and drinking themselves to death or slipping roofies into girls’ drinks.
heresy!
And to think that all we did at Libby was to place very LARGE speakers in the windows and played The Village People’s “In The Navy” whilst the ROTC drilled on the field below…ah, good times!
I thought Willy Villy had the foreign student contigent!
( I actually didn’t graduate from CU–I graduated from U of Iowa).
And thanks for making my point–basketball and band encourage and support athletic and musical ability. I am still puzzling over just what the Greek system facilitates.
C3 --I don’t see why I need to approve of Pan-Hellenic anything. It’s an opinion. I don’t see the appeal. Again, YM(did) V.
I don’t recall any cliques in my co-ed dorms–but we did have dinner together (the whole floor) about once a month. It was fun. At Iowa, that mentality didn’t fly, but I was friendly with most of the girls on my floor–by then I was a mid year sophomore and past most frosh hijinks, so perhaps I missed out on all the girl bitchery. I concede happily that it most likely was there–people are people wherever they are.
I guess I just don’t see socializing as less worthwhile than playing a march before the football game. Having social skills is often hugely important in getting a job and maintaining relationships. Like I said before, you certainly don’t have to join a Greek organization to get social skills, but then, you don’t have to join the marching band to be a musician.
Also, I know you can cite plenty of stories of Greeks behaving badly. I wouldn’t ever deny that things like drinking deaths, hazing, and rapes occur. I just don’t think it’s a problem that’s isolated within fraternities and sororities and most houses I was familiar with proactively instituted programs to prevent problems like that. While I was in school, there wasn’t one drinking death or rape attributed to a fraternity or sorority on my campus. The football and soccer teams were a different story entirely. I won’t even start on the rugby team.
I don’t think you need to approve of it any more than I think you need to approve of the Asian-American club. You’re statements seem to me, though, to be venturing more into disapprove territory, which in my opinion, is just as silly as disapproving of any other random club. You’re right in that MMMV and YMMV. Like I keep saying, don’t like it - don’t join. I don’t think it’s in the YMMV spirit, though, to make insulting statements about people who do choose to join (“shallow, narcissistic, entitled people”).
Honestly–and how many times did I qualify that with SOME or ALOT? I made it very clear that I did not mean all.
I think you would like to soften criticism of Greeks because of your positive experience–it obviously meant alot to you. I have the feeling that if I mentioned the houses that I think of during this discussion, I would get a reply along the lines of oh, XXX house–well, they’re notorious for doing that and frowned on by most other houses–which is nonsense, but also just another way of distancing your defense from some difficult issues. So, hazing isn’t allowed in your house. Great. How about your house starting to agitate and press for reform on all houses? How about speaking out on hazing? (not you, personally, but Pan-Hellenics as a whole–and not just lip service, actual fines and charter restrictions if houses are found to practice it).
All I am saying is that softer image does not ring true --it may be a stereotype, but the image that comes to mind when someone mentions frat or house is “elitist” or “debauchery”. Yes, it’s a stereotype–all of which have traces of truth in them. I certainly didn’t see any “chivalry” present at the several toga parties(they were big when I was in college) I attended back in the day.
The stories I related about the downright meanness of some girls were true. You seem to dismiss them–or say that since bitchery happens, that sorority “sisters” doing it is OK. No, it is NOT ok–as a sorority–members are supposed to be striving to higher standards, no? All part of that chosen, special group stuff.
First of all, the two aren’t mutually exclusive. You can be in a fraternity and be involved in other activities.
Secondly, fraternities and sororities facilitate a social network. That’s why I joined. I won’t even pretend that I joined a fraternity to be involved in the community service stuff (which we had to do). Having joined one, I can tell you that I did experience the following benefits:
-made new friends who I otherwise wouldn’t have met
-met people from multiple classes
-become involved in inter-fraternity intramural sports
-community service involvement (which actually turned out to be kind of fun)
-plan and organize social activities
-gain leadership experience (I was a house officer responsible for recruitment)
-increase my overall social network
-feel more connected with the university, always having a place to come back to
-increase my professional network
-don’t have to eat in the dining hall (fraternities had cooks for Mon-Fri lunch and dinner)
-free on-campus parking
Now some people can experience that stuff in other ways - they join clubs, sign up for ROTC, become residence assistants or TAs, play sports. Some do both. We had guys in our house involved in all that stuff. I played club hockey. Other guys did other stuff. Some guys did nothing.
Now I won’t pretend there aren’t some negatives too:
-excessive alchohol and drug use
-elitism and cliquishness
-excessive conformity
-divisiveness - after “bid day” my freshman hall pretty much split into frat vs GDI and by house. Especially once pledging started.
-minor violence and vandelism
-“groupthink” mentality that gives validation to being an asshole
-hazing
I’m curious - how long has it been since you were exposed to the Greek system? All of those things you think should be happening were happening when I was in school (I graduated from the University of Maryland in '94). Not only was hazing one of the fastest ways to get your charter revoked, but it was absolutely drummed into our heads that the officers of the club could be held criminally and civilly responsible if any member was injured in any way (not just through hazing, but through off-campus drinking, etc.). There were still some houses that hazed, but even the most innocuous hazing (being made to sing to a group of guys, etc.) was disallowed in my house.
Some other PanHellenic (& the umbrella group the fraternities belonged to…I forget what that was called) imposed preventative measures at my school were not allowing kegs at fraternity parties, having strict guest lists, requiring houses to have professional (and objective; usually off-duty cops were hired) security at their doors, strict time limits on parties, and parties restricted to either Friday or Saturday night (but a house couldn’t have more than one party per weekend). Under-21 members had to be marked and were not allowed to be served. Non-alcoholic beverages and food were required (and not just a bottle of Coke and one bag of chips - there had to be a reasonable amount). These rules were enforced by both officers of other houses (we had a rota set up for inspections) and university advisors (who were present for inspections). Those of us who did inspections took it VERY seriously, because if one house got in trouble, it put the whole university Greek system in peril. Houses found to be in violation were banned from having any parties and Nationals were informed. Every National has their own rules, but for my house, we would have been in danger of having our Charter suspended if we broke rules imposed by our local PanHellenic Association.
I really don’t have any vested interest in “softening” the image of the Greek system other than fighting ignorance. I’m not (and haven’t previously in the thread) denied that people in the Greek system do break rules and laws, often with horrendous outcomes. I don’t, however, think it’s a Greek-only problem and I think some of your stereotypes are pretty dated.
Yeah, I got a feel for the “connectedness” a few weeks back when I was at a frat party for about 5 minutes. The one with guests alternately urinating and vomiting into the bushes while Jethro tries to dry-hump his new girlfriend on the dance floor while trying not to slip on the spilled beer.
