First of all, there’s no way to use a firearm in a less than lethal way. A firearm is ALWAYS a deadly weapon. It is a total Hollywood fabrication that there’s any way to shoot someone without killing them. Yes, lots of people get shot and don’t actually die. But every shot…even one in the shoulder, or the leg, or the arm, can kill. And you can miss and hit a bystander, or miss and hit the head.
So cops are trained to never use their guns unless they are justified in using deadly force. If you aren’t justified in using deadly force, your gun shouldn’t be used, period. This is a very simple, very clear, very easy to understand, and very correct rule. If less than lethal force is called for then the cops have other options than their guns…handcuffs, batons, tasers, pepper spray, etc.
But pointing a deadly weapon at someone is a case where the use of lethal force is justified…not just for cops but for anyone. It is clearly a case of self defense. You cannot point a deadly weapon at someone without being a deadly threat. And if you are a deadly threat then it is justified to use deadly force against you.
I live less than a mile from this school. Both of my children went to middle school there. I drive past it to and from work every weekday. I asked my 22-year-old son if he was surprised by the events. He said he really wasn’t. In my opinion, this the real tragedy…that events of this nature don’t horrify us all.
The trouble with less-than-lethal weaponry is not only can it be ineffective, it can also be lethal. Victoria Snelgrove was killed in 2004 by a pepper spray pellet fired by Boston Police. She was part of a crowd during a Red Sox victory “celebration”. The crowd was somewhat rowdy and the officer thought the weapon was “less-than-lethal”. A combination that produced a tragic result.
Not finger-pointing on this one, and no I never started a “Pit thread” on this. I’m just saying “less-than-lethal” weapons can have unexpected consequences - form totally ineffective to lethal.
I’ll join the chorus on this one. The kid died because of the actions he took. Period.
Less-lethal options aren’t always options at all. It’s tragic, sure, but what about life in America 2006 isn’t?
Here in Cincinnati a dude was shot to death after wielding a brick in a menacing manner. And the police chief went on record to defend the cops and to assert that deadly force was justified. Now I’m an avid supporter of police but I couldn’t get behind him on that one. It seemed far more appropriate (if not still a tad excessive) to shoot the kid in the foot and be done with it.
However, this case is different. The kid chose a realistic gun for a reason. He obviously WANTED people to think it was a real gun. He got his wish and now he’s dead.
Who’s to blame here? The kid. 100%. The police acted appropriately in this instance. You point a gun at a cop and you die. Whether or not it turns out to be a fake weapon is irrelevant. The kid knew it was fake and could have dropped it at any time during this standoff. He knew exactly what he was doing.
As for the parents, it’s got to be tough to lose a son. They should grieve in private and keep their freaking mouths shut. They should remember that the situation was extremely traumatic for a whole bunch of completely innocent people, including the students and cops. If they pursue this, I trust that the families of all these innocent people sue the pants off them for the trauma that their son inflicted when he brought a “gun” to school.
This boy also threatened another student with the gun, holding him at gunpoint and forcing him into a closet. The fact that he painted the identifying “fake gun” barrel tells me he wanted the cops to think it was real.
His parents have donated his organs, which will help four other people. I’m sorry the kid got to this point, but he obviously wanted to die. The police did the right thing under the circumstances. It could have been a lot worse.
I’m not a Police Officer, but I can’t believe there’s any reputable school of firearms training that allows shooting anywhere but center mass of the target. Shooting at an extremity is just a bad idea; there’s too much chance of missing. Is any police officer actually trained or instructed to take this kind of shot?
So when I’m running around yelling, “I want to die! I want to commit suicide! I want a cop to shoot me! Please, I want a cop to kill me, please cop, kill me!” The cops are supposed to happily oblige me?
Funny how “everybody heard” the kid saying he wanted to die, yet no one heard the one kid telling people he almost wrestled the gun away from this kid, and while he was wrestling with him, the gun started to come apart just like a pellet gun would. How come nobody heard Dad on the phone with a Deputy telling him his son had a black painted pellet gun? How come dad wasn’t allowed into the area for 30 minutes?
Funny how everyone hears what they wanted to hear, but no one heard what they should have heard.
Anyway, I saw the pellet gun on TV displayed next to a real gun and I can understand a cop shooting someone for brandishing what looks just like a real gun. But I still have questions about how the whole situation was appraised by this 16-year-veteran SWAT member, the rest of his team, and how his department trains them to respond to a lone 15-year-old running around yelling “I want to die!”
Also, if somebody saw me with a gun in school, I’d sure as hell tell them it was fake. “Hey, don’t worry, I’m not gonna do a Columbine massacre on you guys, this gun is fake!”.
Probably because after Columbine was over, Eric and Dylan killed themselves. He may have wanted to die, but how were the cops to assume he wasn’t planning on taking out others if he could?
It was a terrible situation, and hindsight is 20/20.
Yet he also told them he wanted to kill himself. Not an easy feat with a pellet gun. Not hard with a 9mm. This would be a good indication that he was representing his gun as authentic.
They chased him into an unoccupied bathroom. There was no one for him to take with him, other than himself and possibly, the SWAT team. I’d like to know, did the SWAT team take covered positions at either end of the hallway, or did they stand right in front of the bathroom door waiting for him to come out carrying a gun?
Are we dealing with a SWAT team with common sense, or SWAT team comprised mainly of trigger-happy John Waynes & Rambos?
This was no Columbine. There were no hallways strewn with blood & dead bodies. Not a single shot had been fired.
…and the kids and teachers in the class rooms behind the officer. But hey, innocent bystanders aren’t as important as people doing stupid things, are they?
If you have a gun and are pointing it at the cops, yes. Because many suicidal people are unstable and have no problem at all trying to take people with them.
Furthermore there is little evidence that is what happened in this instance. Police may have known the kid was suicidal (I don’t know, they were on the scene ten minutes after the kid pulled his gun, I find it doubtful they had time to investigate the kid’s psychological state by asking friends and family) but even that doesn’t change the fact he could have been a risk. And in fact from what I’ve read, there is no evidence the kid said ANYTHING to police, let alone “I want a cop to kill me.”
From what I’ve seen friends have said to the media, well after it was all said and done, that they were not surprised because they knew Chris had been suicidal and had talked about killing himself. I’ve not seen any evidence that “everyone” was talking to the SWAT team members telling them the kid was suicidal.
And the kid that wrestled with Chris said the gun started to come apart? That’s irrelvant. How can the cops place their lives and the lives of other students on the line based on the extremely uninformative info from a non-expert like a middle school student that the “gun started to come apart.” You do know real guns can come apart, too? That is a complete non-point, and again there is no evidence the police had this info. This whole thing went down in a matter of minutes not hours, and during those minutes police were focused on keeping Chris from shooting others and evacuating the school where it was safe to do so. It’s doubtful anyone had time to conduct a full-scale investigation into everything that happened and everything going on in Chris’s life prior to the shooting. Chris is the one who set the timetable, by the way.
The police are also maintaining the claim that the father did not even know that there was incident until after his son had already been shot. And as to why they wouldn’t let him into the crime scene, that’s probably standard procedure.
There’s no evidence that the 15-year old was running around yelling that, there is no evidence he said anything. And again, why should someone being suicidal preclude them from being homicidal as well? You’ve never heard of murder-suicides? The SWAT team did take steps to save Chris’s life. They cornered him in the bathroom but didn’t charge in, they were content to keep him pinned down in there as they tried to get him to give up his gun. When he came out and levelled the gun at a police officer they no longer had options. If Chris Penley had stayed in the bathroom for a few hours then perhaps a skilled negotiator could have done some work with him, but it takes time to get people like that on the scene and time for them to do their magic. Chris set this timetable, not the police.
And that, my friend, is sufficient to use deadly force. Or do you really believe that SWAT members should take one on the chin just because it’s a kid who is brandishing the weapon? Honestly, do you not view the police officers as being as innocent as the teachers and students?
Re the officers shooting a man who was threatening them with a brick:
That is the argument they used. The criticism, one that I share, is that there are times when they can reasonably be expected to “think outside of the box” because of extenuating circumstances. Deadly force should be used on the threat of deadly force, but…a brick? I think getting the dude to drop the brick could have been accomplished with something less than deadly force. It’s not like it would have discharged accidentally and killed someone.
I don’t expect a SWAT member to take one in the chin. I expect a SWAT member to protect his own ass by taking a covered position at the end of the hall, within view of the bathroom they’ve got the kid cornered in. It’s what I’d do, unless I was looking for a chance to off someone and be a hero.
Were there teachers and students immediately adjacent to the bathroom this kid was cornered in? If that’s so, then I’ll all with you.