Metacom, you're an idiot. Plain and simple.

The BBQ Pit
1

In this thread, Metacom states:
[ul]
[li]A deputy, with a (possibly but unconfirmed fake) gun pointed at him, was not justified in using deadly force.[/li][li]That the deputy should have let the kid get off one shot before reacting, just to be sure the gun was real.[/li][li]That a law enforcement officer should be willing to risk getting shot rather than shooting a 15-year-old suspect.[/li][li]If the officer has “reason to suspect” that the suspect doesn’t have a real gun, should not treat it as a real gun at all.[/li][li]That it is better to risk the life of a law enforcement officer than risking the life of the boy running around a school with a gun.[/li][/ul]

Metacom then realizes that most everyone in the thread thinks he’s full of shit, and he pussies out and ducks out of the thread.
OK. I’m a cop, and have been for 18 years. I’m not a SWAT jock and I’ve never had to shoot at anyone (and I hope I never do).

I am expected to face reasonable risks to do my job. That means facing shit that most people wouldn’t go into for any amount of money. I proudly wear a medal for risking my life to pull a suicidal man from the surf in a raging storm.

When there are shots fired, it’s easy to spot the cops - we’re the ones running towards the gunfire!

However, I am not paid to do stupid shit and be suicidal. I have a wife that expects me to come home at the end of my shift. If I don’t, it had better not be because I was a moron and let some kid squeeze off just one shot to make sure the gun is real.

The kid’s father (and according to Metacom, one other person) told someone on the scene that the kid did not have access to a real gun, but did have a pellet gun that was painted black. Note that the father never saw what gun the kid was carrying that day - even with what the father said, there is no reason to believe this kid couldn’t have gotten his hands on a real gun and the pellet gun was still under his bed with his Playboys.

In reading everything on this incident, it appears the kid was trapped in a bathroom, SWAT had the place surrounded and they were attempting to negotiate with the kid. The kid came out of the bathroom, first pointed the gun at himself, then took a “tactical stance” and pointed the gun at the deputy in front of him. The deputy shot the kid.

Yes, it’s obvious to everyone now that the kid was trying to commit suicide-by-cop. I imagine it was just as obvious to that deputy. But no one in their right mind is going to let the kid shoot first. It only takes that one lucky shot to kill that deputy.

I guarantee that Metacom wouldn’t be standing there calmly, waiting to see if the gun goes off. No, he’d be hiding behind one of us.

2

When I read Metacom’s posts there, I knew right away he wasn’t a law officer. I have watched enough of COPS to see that many times police seem to be too lenient when after a dangerous suspect. I don’t envy you your job.

3

Damn, that OP was quick.
I agree on pretty much all the points and nearly laughed out loud when I read that he thought the kid should’ve been allowed to fire one round before the cops did anything about it. Is that the new “kill one cop for free and then afterwards we’ll shoot you” policy?

4

Just to add my two cents to the “shoot in the shoulder” philosophy. It’s good in theory and in a controlled environment such as a shooting range. No adrenalin, stationary target, ear protection, all the time in the world.

But it’s extremely difficult to put into practice in a real time situation, no matter how well trained you are. It seems unclear at this point whether the guy emerged or was visible prior to the shooting, but I’ll say this much. If a guy rushes out from behind a closed door at short range and points a gun at me, I’m going for the instinctive double tap at centre mass. I simply don’t have the luxury of time to take a Weaver stance, aim carefully and squeeze.

Furthermore, assuming he was visible and did not rush out, it seems he was at least moving, either towards the officer or at an angle. The distance from shoulder to heart is not exactly miles. Add adrenalin to the mix, and even if your intention was to shoot him in the shoulder, the chances are good you could nail him in the heart.

Plus, which shoulder? Is he holding the weapon with one hand or both? Which is the controlling hand? Will it be the correct shoulder? All of this information to be computed in a split second.

Remember, at best you have one good chance before the lead starts heading your way.

And a note on Kevlar. It doesn’t cover your face, nor your balls. I like my balls. We’ve come a long way together.

5

Actually it can conver your balls, depending on the type of suit you’re wearing. IME though that is not something that SWAT would be wearing.

6

If you’re going to point a weapon (or what reasonably looks like a weapon) at a police officer, be prepared to eat rounds. And officers, don’t lose an ounce of sleep over it.

The teenager in question had a pellet gun that resembled a Beretta Model 92, which is capable of dispensing many rounds of 9mm Parabellum.

7

Martin, point taken.

On reflection, it’s probably more accurate for me to say that the standard issue we received in the South African Police Services was chest, upper stomach and back plates only. Probably wasn’t actually Kevlar, because the danged things were hot and heavy as hell.

Thanks for the heads up.

8

One thing I think most people don’t realize is just how much sleep a police officer probably loses when they have to shoot someone. I was in the Army and in the course of my career I had to kill enemy combatants in the field. Everyone who has ever served in a combat situation deals with that differently. Some people suffer serious psychological harm after enough of it, some do not. But I think almost everyone who has been through that will attest that it definitely changes you. And it’s something that most people, deep down inside, don’t consider to be “no big deal.” Although bravado around the rest of the guys of course might lead outsiders to expect otherwise.

I’d imagine a police officer has a rougher time of it. Police officers that have to kill are typically killing their fellow countrymen, and moreover people who they probably share the same city with, people that they to some degree identify with. In the course of the wrap-up to the incident that officer will find out the person’s name, they’ll find out if they have kids, if they had a loving mother who’s going to miss them, if they had a wife et cetera. Even when it’s a criminal who put the officer in a shoot or be shot situation, that’s still the kind of thing that weighs on your mind. At least for people in my situation you can try to “neutralize” what you’ve had to do, and remind yourself that you were fighting the enemy and try not to dwell too much on their humanity. A police officer is going to be directly confronted with the humanity of the person they shot for a period of months afterwards.

9

They actually make kevlar suits that cover almost your entire body. You get into the problem of mobility though. When I was in the army it wasn’t an unknown thing for people to take out their ceramic plates for added mobility. I’ve heard anectdotally that a lot of law enforcement officers won’t wear a bulletproof vest on a day-to-day basis if it’s not required, and that in some jobs where it is required the officer may just not do it.

So it’s rare to actually see someone in one of the heavier suits.

10

Well, I guess one could have a carbon composite Kevlar 9’ diameter Hamster Wheel for the cops, that would protect them completely.

Mobility versus Protection, yes? Mobility = Survivability, yes?

I don’t want to minimise the impact of a “shoot”: even a “clean shoot.” But I do not want the PO worrying about stupid “Is this really a gun”-type calculations when they’re being targeted. The job is hard enough as it is.

11

Indeed.

12

I thought the pitting of the kid’s parents in that thread was both insensitive and unwarranted, but I agree that the officer in question did exactly what he should have done, given the circumstances. Asking a police officer to allow himself to be shot at before defending himself is asking far too much.

13

All mikes are on.

All guns are loaded.

All “fake guns” that look like real, lethal guns are real, lethal guns.

14

And you don’t draw a gun unless you intend using it, and you don’t use it unless you intend to kill.

15

FTR, the public you serve also expects you to come home at the end of the shift.

16

I simply think that police should be willing to assume much more risk in situations such as this then you do. I think that, overall, it would result in far fewer deaths, although more police officers would likely die.

I don’t think police should allow themselves to be shot at in general–for example, if some random man on the street pulls a gun and aims it at them, I think they’d be justified in shooting him. But this case wasn’t a random man. The police (collectively) had been told that the gun wasn’t real, and it was obviously a suicide by cop. I think this warrants the police giving the kid the benefit of the doubt in this set of circumstances.

I think the bullet points in the OP present my position unfairly–they make it seem like the positions are seperate from each other, when they’re not. The cops should have allowed him one shot in this situation. The cops should have been more willing to risk their lives in situations like that, etc.

Obviously, the officer’s adrenaline was pumping and it was a very tense situation, and it would have taken a great deal of courage to not shoot the kid. I don’t know what I would have done in such a situation–probably would have shot, given that that’s what I would have been trained to do. And I think that’s a problem with the culture of law enforcement in this country. It’s too cowboy (come to think of it, that might be a problem with the culture of this country in general).

I have to go to work, and I’m going to pussy out of this pit thread too, but of all the times I’ve been insulted on the Dope this pitting will bother me the least. I value that kids life just as much as the officers; you can call me an idiot and tell me I’m full of shit for my opinion about this all you want, but I stand by what I’ve said and I’m not ashamed of my beliefs.

17

So the numbers stay the same overall, but the two columns switch in favor of more police deaths. Do you realize how that sounds?

18

If you’re not ashamed of your beliefs, why are you cutting and running when your beliefs are confronted?

If you do happen to come back to this thread, read this.

That’s from the official police report. Martin Hyde posted it in the other thread you ducked out of. These cops did their job. They did it well. The kid did everything that he could to make the police believe that he had a real gun. They had no choice but to take him seriously.

19

I totally understand Metacom’s point and it would work, you know, if life were an action movie. Maybe he needs to stop watching Bad Boys on DVD and get off his ass and join a ride along program so that he can actually see that real life isn’t like a movie.

20

What? How do you get “the numbers stay the same overall” from “it would result in far fewer deaths”? You even quoted that bit.

I don’t agree with Metacom here, but I think this is a lame pitting. He’s got a legitimate position.

Daniel