I pit the substandard governmental response to the situation in New Orleans.

[monavis]

@Scylla

Y’know, I think about this on a whole lot of levels. I don’t have any real answers, but I think some of my thoughts are worth sharing.

I think the Federal response has been bad and slow. No question about it. I think Bush did a poor job of leadership.

But, the more I think about it, the angrier I am at everybody. I think everybody has really sucked through this thing, with a few notable exceptions.

I think the Mayor of N.O. Sucks. Apparently he’s been hanging out in Baton Rouge the last few days, and suddenly last night he appears on radio and whines and curses and complains and acts all indignant.

Rudy was in the streets showing a presence half an hour after the trade center fell. He led. I think just about any other Mayor would have shown up at the Superdome the next day, or the Convention Center. I think any other Mayor would have attempted to lead. Where was this guy.

I’ve heard some police have just turned in their badges and left. Horrible. The city needs these guys.

I think the FEMA response and the Federal response has been just terrible. Get food and water in there. Get medics in there in the first 24 hours.

I also think the people have sucked. The victims. There is far too much opportunism and looting. There is too much “help me, help me.” There are a lot of able bodied people at the Superdome and the Convention Center. There are things an able bodied person could do to help themselves and give aid and succor to those who can’t help themselves. You don’t sit around waiting to be rescued. You don’t complain or whine that nobody is doing anything for you. If nothing else, you clean up the shit and the garbage so the helpless people don’t have to sit in it. You do something.

Some disasters show mankind at its best. Some show it at it’s worst.

Amen!!!

Monavis

[Banquet_Bear]

@kinoons

That assumes that those seven or eight chinooks are tasked to only take the donated water to the superdome, and screw everyone else.

…lovely strawman there. If we fly water into the Superdome, we screw everybody else.

There was, still is, several (tens, if not hundreds) of thousands of miles affected by this hurricane.

Lets get them water too!

As I stated I don’t know how many Chinooks are available for use, but I’m willing to bet its not more than 40 to 60 at best. You’re suggesting we commit a full 10-20 percent of our available chinooks to one location.

I suggested bupkis. You spent a lot of time coming up with figures that supposedly showed that dropping water to the Superdome would have been “a drop in the bucket.” What you actually showed was that it would be quite easy and indeed possible to provide two days supply of water to the Superdome in only eight airdrops. I only saw one chinook on TV, you seem to think there could be up to fourty Chinooks there. If you think that commiting 10 to 20 percent would be too much, how about committing only one? Eight airdrops in a day, water needs taken care of for the Superdome-assuming the calculations you made are correct, of course…

Yes that location is in need, but should it get 10-20 percent of our resources?

I suppose it depends on how important you think it is to get water to 25000 people. Of course, you could only use one helicopter, which would only be 2.5% of the resources, but we are only speaking hypothetically anyway.

Resources that can also be used to move sick people (24 litters). Do you suggest we take those 8 chinooks that could get several hundred sick or injured people out of the area to deliver water? Those are the choices that have to be made.

Again I’m suggesting nothing. Your numbers suggest a lot, which is why I commented on your post. Do I think that choices need to be made? Absolutely. And I’m sure, in the fullness of time those choices will be closely scrutinied. But two days of water for 25000 people is not a drop in the bucket, by any stretch of the imagination.

And again, this entire thread is about the government response in general. People have been asking why it is taking so long to get relief to the region and I’m trying to explain why it takes so long, and why helicopters are not a good substitute for trucks and trains.

Far from showing why it takes so long to get relief to the region, you actually show how easy it to screw it up with the wrong mindset. Logistics is a bugger of a game, your absolutely right there. Trucks and trains are easily the most efficent way of getting supplies to where they are needed-again, can’t fault your arguement their either. An army without a supply chain is an army that is doomed to failure.

But there comes a time where sometimes, efficiency needs to make way for speed. A clock starts ticking once a natural disaster like this happens. Every hour, another death. Decisions need to made quickly in relation to priority. Having experienced leaders making those quick decisions is an important, absolute nessecity as well.

From over this end of the pond, the entire relief effort looks like a bureaucracy gone completely stark raving mad. Apparently, Civil Defense is run by **The Department of Homeland Security (DHS) **, led by Michael Chertoff, who has no experience in large-scale disaster relief. FEMA, is a branch of the DHS, who formerly was its own department dedicated to disaster mitigation and relief, is led by Michael Brown, another gentleman with no disaster experience. Apparently National Guards can only be deployed on the request of the Govenor or the Mayor, but not at the direction of someone else, the Mayor of New Orleans is directing police priorities, and FEMA and the governor directing everything else. It doesn’t appear that anybody has verall control of the relief operation, and it becomes clear that absolutely none of the key players have the experience needed to cope. Martial law has been declared…oh no it hasn’t!!! I think that Blackadder said it best to Baldrick…

Blackadder: Yes that’s right, you see there was a tiny flaw in the plan.

George: What was that sir?

Blackadder: It was bollocks.

kinoons, its very easy to argue why something can’t be done. I suspect thats what went on during the early days of the disaster at FEMA HQ. "Helicopters to airdrop water to the Superdome? Can’t be done. Why not? Well, here a ten different reasons, and the figures to go with it. Its not worth it, its just a drop in the bucket, and we can use those helicopters to do something else anyway… " An experienced Director may have made a different call. Your posts, if your figures are correct, show that an airdrop was entirely possible, using the hypothetical conditions we arbitarily imposed on our scenerio.

[Biggirl]

I cannot express the anger that I’m feeling.
Where the Red Cross has been

Acess to New Orleans is controlled by the National Guard and local authorities and while we are in constant contact with them, we simply cannot enter New Orleans against their orders.

The state Homeland Security Department had requested–and continues to request–that the American Red Cross not come back into New Orleans following the hurricane. Our presence would keep people from evacuating and encourage others to come into the city.

The Red Cross has been meeting the needs of thousands of New Orleans residents in some 90 shelters throughout the state of Louisiana and elsewhere since before landfall. All told, the Red Cross is today operating 149 shelters for almost 93,000 residents.

The Red Cross shares the nation’s anguish over the worsening situation inside the city. We will continue to work under the direction of the military, state and local authorities and to focus all our efforts on our lifesaving mission of feeding and sheltering.

The Red Cross does not conduct search and rescue operations. We are an organization of civilian volunteers and cannot get relief aid into any location until the local authorities say it is safe and provide us with security and access.

The original plan was to evacuate all the residents of New Orleans to safe places outside the city. With the hurricane bearing down, the city government decided to open a shelter of last resort in the Superdome downtown. We applaud this decision and believe it saved a significant number of lives.

As the remaining people are evacuated from New Orleans, the most appropriate role for the Red Cross is to provide a safe place for people to stay and to see that their emergency needs are met. We are fully staffed and equipped to handle these individuals once they are evacuated.

Motherfuck this President has a lot to answer for.

[Biggirl]

Anyone who is so politically blinded that they can defend the President and his administration in this complete and total lethal fuck up is a willful moron.

[Banquet_Bear]

@Biggirl

I cannot express the anger that I’m feeling.
Where the Red Cross has been
Motherfuck this President has a lot to answer for.

…Good Lord…
:: blinks ::

Well, that answers a few more questions, I guess. Ideaology over relief. The Red Cross has food, but aren’t allowed in to distribute it. People in New Orleans need food, but can’t get out to get it. This is truly the craziest disaster relief operation I have seen in my lifetime. Can somebody honestly tell me, who is making these decisions? Does the Mayor of New Orleans know that the Red Cross aren’t allowed access to the city? Stark Raving Mad indeed…

[Scylla]

@Biggirl

Anyone who is so politically blinded that they can defend the President and his administration in this complete and total lethal fuck up is a willful moron.

This Nagin guy is the Mayor of NOLA. We have the Governor, and State Homeland Security Rep.

It would seem to me that these are the guys making the decisions resulting in this mess.

So, why exactly are you blaming the Pres and what for?

[Squink]

@Banquet Bear

Can somebody honestly tell me, who is making these decisions?

It appears to be FEMA.
Articles from Northern Command, almost invariably contain a phrase about waiting to respond to FEMA’s requests:

Meanwhile, in Colorado Springs, Colo., NORTHCOM’s Joint Operations Center remains on 24-hour duty to expedite any additional requests for help from FEMA representatives, officials said.

Military Providing Full-Scale Response to Hurricane Relief Effort

The U.S. Navy’s Military Sealift Command hospital ship USNS Comfort (T-AH 20), based here, was activated Aug. 31 in support of Federal Emergency Management Agency (FEMA) efforts to provide medical support in the wake of Hurricane Katrina.

Hospital Ship Comfort to Support FEMA Hurricane Relief Efforts
The Guard expresses similar frustrations:

“We could have had people on the road Tuesday,” Cutler said. “We have to wait and respond to their need.”

Congress Likely to Probe Guard Delay

While it’s possible that some other government agency is gumming up the works with respect to NGO’s, FEMA’s iron fist around the military response makes that seem (IMHO) unlikely.

[Biggirl]

The mayor is begging for troops. Either to be given the authority to use them or for the president to use his authority to use them. Isn’t that what the president is supposed to do? How about keeping the Red Cross out of NO because the administration didn’t want the victims to feel too comfortable. That’s not his fault, either?

But you’re right. The blame shouldn’t fall on the president’s shoulders. It should fall directly on all who continue to fellate this ideological empty sack of a president.

[Bricker]

OK.

Can anyone cite a previous disaster relief – or any other similar effort – that spun up to speed more quickly than this?

Everyone whining about how the administration is dragging its feet, or should be doing something faster and better… when, in the history of the fucking world, has an effort this size actually been done any quicker?

And the first person that mumbles “Iraq” should be slapped.

So? Anyone? Bueller?

[Squink]

@Bricker

OK.

Can anyone cite a previous disaster relief – or any other similar effort – that spun up to speed more quickly than this?

So quickly you forget 9/11.

[squeegee]

@Bricker

Can anyone cite a previous disaster relief – or any other similar effort – that spun up to speed more quickly than this?

I’ll try to dig up something more substantive, but there’s this

S. O’BRIEN: FEMA has been on the ground for four days, going into the fifth day. Why no massive airdrop of food and water? In Banda Aceh, in Indonesia, they got food dropped two days after the tsunami struck

[squeegee]

Since we’re on the topic, this almost deserves it’s own thread. But there’s already so many.

@The Boston Herald

**Brown pushed from last job: Horse group: FEMA chief had to be `asked to resign’

The federal official in charge of the bungled New Orleans rescue was fired from his last private-sector job overseeing horse shows.

And before joining the Federal Emergency Management Agency as a deputy director in 2001, GOP activist Mike Brown had no significant experience that would have qualified him for the position.

The Oklahoman got the job through an old college friend who at the time was heading up FEMA.**

[Biggirl]

@Bricker

OK.

Can anyone cite a previous disaster relief – or any other similar effort – that spun up to speed more quickly than this?

Everyone whining about how the administration is dragging its feet, or should be doing something faster and better… when, in the history of the fucking world, has an effort this size actually been done any quicker?

And the first person that mumbles “Iraq” should be slapped.

So? Anyone? Bueller?

Certainly quicker than negative years since this administration ignored FEMA and the Army Corp of Engineers and cut funding to the levees.

I won’t say why funding was diverted. I don’t want to get slapped.

[monstro]

@Bricker

OK.

Can anyone cite a previous disaster relief – or any other similar effort – that spun up to speed more quickly than this?

Everyone whining about how the administration is dragging its feet, or should be doing something faster and better… when, in the history of the fucking world, has an effort this size actually been done any quicker?

And the first person that mumbles “Iraq” should be slapped.

So? Anyone? Bueller?

Excuse me, but massive aid was sent in for tsunami victims the NEXT DAY! I remember it clearly! So does the reporter I watched on the evening news yesterday!

Now the next thing you’re going to say is that we imagined that help arrived so fast for them, that it must be a dream we’re thinking of, that of course the tsunami victims were left in their misery for five days in the sweltering heat, babies and old people dying of dehydration. Or, you’re gonna tell us that there was something different about the tsunami victims or their situation. You’ll find some explanation and like all the others you’ve provided, it won’t wash. Not with me.

This isn’t about liberal/conservative/Dems/Repubs any more! I’m just so sick of the lying and the apologia and excuse-making and hand-waving. It was one thing when the lying was about Iraq and other people. Now it’s about us!
If it were Bricker locked in the Superdome for almost a week, or stuck on a roof waving fruitlessly at helicopter after helicopter, or carrying a listless baby across sewage waters, we wouldn’t see you taking the position that you have. Neither would duffer. Why is it the rest of us can see how fucked-up our response to this has been and ya’ll can’t? I just don’t get it.

[Twin]

@Biggirl

Certainly quicker than negative years since this administration ignored FEMA and the Army Corp of Engineers and cut funding to the levees.

I won’t say why funding was diverted. I don’t want to get slapped.

This old chestnut has been soundly defeated. Try to keep up.
Also, you may want to read here why the mandatory evacuation of the city was ordered. Here is the key sentence:

Gov. Kathleen Blanco, standing beside the mayor at a news conference, said President Bush called and personally appealed for a mandatory evacuation for the low-lying city, which is prone to flooding.

So are you ready to praise President Bush and place some of the blame on who deserves it? I got a better idea! Instead of playing the blame game, let’s do what we can to help out. Or, I guess you could just bitch about it on a meaningless message board. Whatever works for you. :rolleyes:

[Scylla]

@Biggirl

The mayor is begging for troops. Either to be given the authority to use them or for the president to use his authority to use them.

The first I heard from Nagin was Wenesday night. He has athority and the governor has athority. It is the Mayor’s city and the Governor’s State.

My asessment of the situation is that the local and state government was worthless. Worse than worthless. They sent people to the convention center without support. They sent people to the Superdome as a shelter of last resort at the last minute without having made any plans to keep order and feed them.

I heard no direction from local government over the radio.

I think the Federal reaction has been slow. I think it looks slower because in most emergencies State and local government fills the breach while larger efforts ramp up.

In this case, there was a total failure at the state and local level.

Isn’t that what the president is supposed to do? How about keeping the Red Cross out of NO because the administration didn’t want the victims to feel too comfortable. That’s not his fault, either?

The administration didn’t want them to feel to comfortable? That’s not what your cite says. What an odious lie.

from your cite: "Acess to New Orleans is controlled by the National Guard and local authorities…The state Homeland Security Department had requested–and continues to request–that the American Red Cross not come back into New Orleans following the hurricane. Our presence would keep people from evacuating and encourage others to come into the… "

Looks like a local decision. To me, it looks like the correct one.

But you’re right. The blame shouldn’t fall on the president’s shoulders. It should fall directly on all who continue to fellate this ideological empty sack of a president.

I like you Biggirl but I find your sentiments to be disgusting. Your trivializing the tragedy, and it’s reprehensible the way you are attempting to use this tragedy to spawn a partisan political attack.

“fellate this ideological empty sack of a President?”

If that’s your action, you can safely be dismissed as just another whack job.

[Biggirl]

@Twin

This old chestnut has been soundly defeated. Try to keep up.

A yes, a pretty girl with a blog. I’m convinced. Soundly defeated. Another willing moron to add to the list.
Also, you may want to

[wring]

calling for an evacuation w/o having a plan in place to accomplish said evacuation is a sign of the fucking depth of the problem some of us are talking about. try to keep up.

[Rick]

@Bricker

OK.

Can anyone cite a previous disaster relief – or any other similar effort – that spun up to speed more quickly than this?

Everyone whining about how the administration is dragging its feet, or should be doing something faster and better… when, in the history of the fucking world, has an effort this size actually been done any quicker?

And the first person that mumbles “Iraq” should be slapped.

So? Anyone? Bueller?

Northridge earthquake Jan 17, 1994. Before dark that day the Marine Corps has established water distribution stations inside of Los Angeles as there were serious concerns about the quality / availabilty of tap water.
Yeah Camp Pendelton is only a few hours drive away, but they had no prior notice. In a hurricane you have several days notice.
Also by the next day FEMA had set up processing centers for disaster relief.

[Twin]

@Biggirl

A yes, a pretty girl with a blog. I’m convinced. Soundly defeated. Another willing moron to add to the list.

That’s right. A pretty girl with a blog. With links to the Chicago Tribune and other reptuable news cites. Why don’t you just take the time and read the cites I provided. There have been failures on all levels, but to solely blame Bush for this is short-sighted and smacks of using a tragedy to make a political point.

@wring

calling for an evacuation w/o having a plan in place to accomplish said evacuation is a sign of the fucking depth of the problem some of us are talking about. try to keep up.

Don’t be so hard on the mayor. He should have had these plans, but he was caught flat-footed. It really shouldn’t have been a surprise that a hurricane may someday come, and there should be an evacuation plan. Heck, we have all seen pictures of the hundreds of buses worthlessly floating in water. But maybe he can take this as a lesson learned.

You do mean him and not the president, right?