I usually forget, over the spring/summer/fall/8 months in which the streets don’t really get slippery that my car has ABS. Then, the first snowfall or first street-freeze, on the first corner with a stop sign, the ABS comes on (the ABS I’ve forgotten I have!), the car DOESN’T STOP COMPLETELY when I brake, and I panic for a split second before I remember that that juddering, sequential brakegobrakegobrakego is actually intentional and please don’t go into skid-driving mode.
The first time I drove my Wifes 02 Grand Jeep, I almost missed our turn because it would not let me brake. About 4 inches of powder on top of packed snow…… GAAAAAAAAA. The snow was a common condition for me.
Not being able to slow down? Not so much.
And I can control and steer my car just fine if I’m allowed to control the brakes. Once off the ABS brakes it seems to go to full roll and not a bit of friction. It screws you up. And goes right back into pulsing.
I’m not saying it’s a completely bad thing. But it sometimes sucks.
Whack-a-MoleModern Fighters are designed to be unstable. That’s the only way that they can turn so fast. Cars, not so much. All you have to do when stopping in snow to correct your angle is to get off the brakes for a second (at most). Easy peasy. Hard to do with ALB. There is something about the roll of the tire and recovery there. I hate 'em.
To make matters worse (or just more annoying), it turns out that GM has put TC and ABS under the same set of fuses in the fusebox, if I pull the fuse to disable TC, I also lose ABS…
…the thing is, I’m actually considering it, this is my first car with ABS and TC, I’ve been driving since 1985, and all my previous cars had non-ABS brakes and no TC, I’m used to driving without them, maybe I’ll try it for a month or so, see how it works…
Traction Control Reverse switch.
This is what I was talking about above. Plugs in behind the stock switch. If you don’t like the ‘always on’ setting, look for something like this for your model.
http://www.thunderracing.com/catalog/?action=shop&pcid=156&sid=276#P1308
My point, in response to another post, was simply that modern computers and sensors can easily surpass what a human is capable of in managing things like not locking your brakes and maintaining the ideal balance.
And only a few of us are complaining in this thread. These are not fighter jets. Or NASCAR. Simple vehicles. Yet control is wrested away from you.
I’m a computer programmer myself, and a damn good backyard mechanic. ABS brakes always mess me up. Perhaps it’s because I learned how to drive before folks counted on them.
Some folks don’t understand threshold breaking. I don’t care. It pisses me off to have the control of my car go to a computer that does a really poor job of it.
The thing is, not locking the brakes and maintaining ideal balance are only parts of the whole picture when one is driving in snow/ice/flooded streets. OTOH, there are so many poor drivers that maybe ABS and TC are good ideas for them. But it still should be easier to get rid of the default of ON.
Here was my experience with ABS on an ofranp in a blizzard
Brake, controlled slide, <ABS> uncontrolled slide.
Pure bullshit.
You’re seriously contending that you can stop faster in your car than the ABS? And furthermore, that you frequently encounter stopping situations so extreme that you need to use your threshold breaking so much that ABS “messes you up”?
Mmhmm.
Furthermore, by your very post the anti-lock breaks are a good system. You’re clearly an elite, better-than-all-of-us driver since you grew up in Lake Wobegon, but everybody else who lacks your super-computer ability needs a computer to ‘take control’ away from them instead of locking the wheels and plowing into the car in front of them.
I feel the same way about traction control, and think people that complain about stuff like this are enormous assholes.
Yeah, I drive a manual tranny Mustang GT. In the winter. Near Chicago.
Yep, I’m well versed in the positives and negatives of TCS.
As you said in the OP - if you’re trying to get up a hill from a stop, TCS is actually harmful. It will cut power to the wheels and you’ll either stall or simply slide down the hill. You need to turn it off to really gun the engine to get the car going on slick surfaces.
On the other hand, it’s quite helpful when you’re already at speed and hit an icy patch without realizing it. If you are giving the engine gas and one side has traction while the other doesn’t, you will swerve, possibly dangerously. TCS is nice here because it makes mistakes less dangerous.
I dunno if it’s pit-worthy, though. On my car I just push a button on the dash if I know I need to get up a slick hill. Otherwise I leave TCS on all the time.
Watch your mouth.
Yes that is what I contend. On all counts.
I drive over the continental divide at 11,500 feet every damn day twice on a two lane highway. It’s ice and shadow and snow packed 6 months of the year. EVERY DAY. I use 4x4 6 months out of the year.
And I drive a few miles on gravel roads (ice) to get home. My driveway is a 17% grade. My 4x4 plow truck has chains on all 4 wheels and I leave the chains on all year long. See, it’s rarely summer here. So bullshit yourself.
Do not speak about what you do not know.
IIRC from the Saturn owners manual they recommend turning TC off when there is snow/ice around.
Also about the ABS, to my understanding it is not so much to reduce braking distance, but to allow steering while braking, which may increase braking distance under some conditions.
The big misunderstanding here is that traction control systems are designed for pavement, wet or dry, not ice or deep snow. Surprisingly, that seems to be the stuff you drive on 99% of the time.
I wonder why it would be on by default? It is a mystery.
Quick tip: the TCS is better on pavement than you are. You are not a hero driver. You are not even a good driver. TCS is there because you are shit. It is there because your car is shit. It is there because you are the kind of moron who hotrods around town in your rust-brown 84 Olds or 96 Kia or some other shitbox econo-mobile like you are driving in the goddamn grand prix and the car manufacturer wants you to not die because there is a lot of paperwork and they want to avoid the inevitable lawsuit from your grieving parents/spouse/children/bros who are pissed that they didn’t foresee that trying a handbrake turn on the interstate was a probable result of allowing you to be behind the wheel of their vehicle.
And as for ABS? The naysayers are full of shit. You have more control and stopping power with ABS even on snow, because you have more traction. End. Done. If you think you “can do threshold braking that’s better than ABS”, you are a fucking moron. ABS is banned in lots of racing series because it works too well. High end sports cars with ABS are faster on a track, even when driven by people who I actually believe when they talk about threshold braking.
If you use threshold braking in your normal driving, you are a shitty driver. If you need to stop that quick on a more than bi-annually, you’re a fucking shitty driver who needs to pay more attention. If you think that you are going to be controlling that braking precisely during your daily drive when a person who thinks he’s as good a driver as you think you are pops up in your windshield, you’re just deluding yourself. You’re gonna mash that brake with a vengeance, no matter how much you claim you’re the second coming of Michael fucking Schumi. I just don’t believe you because if Allan McNish locks up his brakes in a panic situation like he did at LeMans a few years back, you’re gonna do it too.
I also appreciate the comment that ABS removes your ability to steer while braking. Especially since it does exactly the opposite thing.
Edit: eniplA’s situation notwithstanding, perhaps you might drive on slick stuff more often than not. If that is the case, I will retract my comments, and instead ask what kind of blithering dickwad you must be to purchase a car that sucks for where you are at. “Gee, I live on Pike’s Peak! I pit Yugo for not making my car more powerful!”
Actually, ABS is superior on most surfaces, but not loose snow and gravel. On those, it’s better to lock up the wheels, so you build up a pile of material in front of the wheel. You plow into the stuff instead of rolling over it. Other than that, you’re right that ABS is better than a human.
I’m not exactly sure what traction control is supposed to protect us from, though. On a rear-wheel drive it could stop someone from spinning out, but is there really a problem with people spinning the wheels and leaving the road in FWD cars? And, sometimes you do need to spin the wheels in snow.
You sure love to tell people about shit you don’t know anything about don’t you.
For your information, I drive a Pathfinder. The only time it’s underpowered is when I forget to turn the VDC off.
And for the record, my last Pathfinder that did not have VDC or ABS was generally easier to control on snow and ice. Don’t know about dry pavement because I can’t remember the last time I had to panic stop or turn.
Now I said generally. The VDC system on the new Pathfinder does do it’s job in many situations. It’s impressive, if somewhat annoying. The ABS can really screw with you in snow on packed snow. To the point where the car takes 20 feet to stop on a down hill instead of 5 feet. The VDC has gotten me in more trouble than it has gotten me out of. Namely stuck.
I fully understand that ABS allows you better control in a panic stop than locking up the brakes. But on tight turns on snow, downhill, it’s often easier to just blip the rear end around. ABS seems to confound this. As soon as that kicks in, power is gone again. Wherein I used to be able to give it a bit of a goose to set it up, I am now hoping to hell that the ABS will allow enough traction to continue the turn. Or, as I said, I have to just use threshold braking. Which I do. You really never want the ABS to every kick in. But when your commute every day is on a skating rink, it does.
And make no mistake. Tires are a serious topic of conversation around here.
So, ivn I’ve been driving the continental divide for 18 years in Colorado. Every day. Not just ski trips. Every day at 6 am I drive over the continental divide. Switch backs and snow and ice greet me 6 months out of the year. Fifty miles in the Colorado Rockies every day. I actually like it. It’s calming. Or in any case, takes my mind off everything else.
Because of that I share my experiences with ABS and VDC here. What type of experience with driving in adverse conditions with ABS and VCD do you bring to the board?
Not only do you not know what the fuck you’re talking about, you’re being an ass about it.
As I noted before though you are trading a shorter stopping distance for total loss of steering. So sit and ride it out and hope you stop in time.
Also as said before I can imagine cases where either might be preferable. Thing is there is no knowing ahead of time which you’d rather have.
That’s completely incorrect. ABS’s function is to execute perfect threshold braking, and it is pretty much a mature technology and has been for years and years.
I don’t think you even understand how it works if you think ABS removes your ability to steer. That’s just wrong, since ABS maximizes your car’s grip under braking.
BTW y’all know that traction control will be mandatory in all new US market vehicles after 2012? I would not be surprised that if not the DoT reg itself, then the carmakers’ lawyers have advised that that the default be the “on” mode. Because they know that if they make it discretionary, the one day someone forgets to turn it on they’ll have a lawsuit in their hands over why wasn’t Uncle Morty protected automatically.
Then again I bet someone is going to sue some day arguing people should NOT be able to turn it off at all (“If the First Party had not been able to turn off traction control, he would have been stuck in low gear and been flattened by the cement truck, instead of quickly getting out of the cement truck’s way and instead ramming my client.” ) Can’t win for losing.
As mentioned, the feature is designed for safety on paved surface, where virtually all driving happens. That we may one day be driving in snow or loose aggregate is expected to be the exception and the way they look at it, then it’s up to you to remember to turn it off.
Jesus Ivn. If you’re going to call people Dickwads and incorrect, you ought to at the very least read the posts carefully. Your reading comprehension is shit.
And if the ABS comes on that is NOT perfect threshold braking. :rolleyes:
Do you even drive? How often do you drive on ice and snow? You’re in the UK right?
For the record, ABS and VDC work perfectly fine in most conditions. I see nothing wrong with bitching about it when it fails you.