Congratulations to both of you, Dio! When is the birth expected to be, and are we going to be invited to a shower?
Look, I don’t think anyone would argue that the person who celebrated the imaginary birthdays couldn’t use a little counseling so he could deal more properly with his grief and move on. But the problem is, there was no indication in the post as to when the abortion was performed, and you’ve gone way past that making broad statements that could apply to any abortion or any miscarriage. One needn’t believe in a soul to mourn the loss of an embryo or fetus-- not on the part of the mother or the father. Perhaps you really do feel that way, but nobody else that I know of, and nobody else in this thread does.
Dude, the things you wrote before don’t magically vanish when you turn your back. You wrote:
You want to revise and extend this now? You said in black and white that you won’t have any feelings about that bloodclot until after it is born.
As for miscarriages of 6 week old embryos, at 6 weeks most women aren’t even going to notice a miscarriage that early unless they’re really tuned in to their bodies. Sure, the majority of miscarriages occurs then, but that’s not how most people experience miscarriage, because to experience the miscarriage people have to know that it occured.
So you’re just posing when you imagine that people who mourn miscarriages are mourning a miscarriage at 6 weeks. How about miscarriages at 4 months, or 5 months?
You’re a total fucking douche on this issue, and you know it.
Did you not just say this a few posts back?
Which is it, Diogenes?
Well, we know that 90% of all abortions are performed in the 1st trimester and that 3rd trimester abortions are illegal but for rare, extreme cases, so there is a 99.99% chance that the pregancy in question was not terminated after the 2nd trimester and a 90% chance it was the 1st. There’s virtually no chance it was anything close to full term so any reference to full term babies is just a red herring.
Look, I understand and sympathize with the profound disppointment and heartbreak of losing a pregnancy through miscarriage. I don’t conceptualize it as the actual death of a person but I understand the emotional letdown.
Some dude trying to play the grieving parent because some chick aborted his embryo, though. That’s just lame. He was never a parent. He never had a child.
I can tell you this, if I had to choose between my wife losing this pregnancy or losing one of the kids we’ve already got…it would require no reflection at all. Losing this preghnancy would not be anywhere close to the same thing and I am confident that anyone in this thread who has kids would agree with me, and that in itself, puts the lie to any equating of the loss of a fetus with the loss of a child. I would get over a miscarriage without much difficulty. The loss of one of my children would wreck me. I think it’s depraved to say that already born, living children with personalities and histories have no more value than a clump of insentient tissue.
Here’s the thing-- **Diogenes **insists that the term “child” only be used post-birth. So, he won’t allow someone to say they lost a child if there is a miscarriage or if the fetus is stillborn. But of course no one in this thread is argueing that a miscarriage is exactly like losing a child. It’s all about winning the abortion debate with semantics.
Thanks. Due in October.
I don’t understand what you think is contradictory.
That’s an entirely different position that you’ve been arguing up to this point. If you can’t see that, then you really don’t understand what you’re writing.
I note that you never addressed my post #73. That is the crux of the matter here, and what people are taking issue with in your position.
Except the Eighth.
For me personally, I don’t feel like it’s a child until it’s born…before that…it’s something else. It’s a different level of feeling. Not nothing but not comparable to how I feel about my real kids either.
This whole thing started because I was disparaging some idiot who marked the “birthdays” of his aborted fetus, by the way, not a miscarriage. That’s just retarded.
Uh…the same thing Lemur thought was contradictory. And the same thing John Mace thought was contradictory.
Well, that’s the way it started, but you took it much further than that. Again, post #73, if you please. If you didn’t mean to say what I quoted there, then just retract it. If you stand by it, then people are going to keep going after you for it.
How so?
I stand by what I said. If a woman choses to terminate a pregnancy, the sperm donor has lost nothing.
You just keep digging there, Diogenes. Apparently that’s what you’re good at!
Also, please note that you specifically said “miscarriage” in that section I quoted. Did you even read it?
I’m still not seeing it. Maybe I’m just dense. Someone’s going to have to help me out here.
If this helps. I would say that no matter how late my wife miscarried, I would still never feel like I’d lost an actual child. I might feel disappointed that a child never materialized out of the pregnancy, but I wouldn’t feel like anyone had died.
Nobody who has a miscarriage is actually losing a child. Better? And I don’t care how late the miscarriage is. It’s not even close to the same thing as losing a real child.
You are creating the false dichotomy that you either lose “a child” or you lose “nothing”. Here it is again:
There is a lot of space in between “a child” and “nothing”. A fetus isn’t “nothing” and an embryo isn’t “nothing”.
Let’s stick with “nothing” then. I would not feel like I had actually “lost” a damn thing. I would just be disappointed that a pregnancy didn’t take.
Well, you’d probably be unusual in that respect. Do you really think it’s “asinine” for someone to feel differently than you do under those circumstances, even when you have many people in this thread telling you that that they would?