Going down in flames in less that 10 posts - oh well???
My wife had an abortion and to this day she talks about what might have been. She thinks it was wrong. Personal decision and all that stuff.
You could not possibly have missed the part of my post which went on to say:
because you snipped it out before you quoted me. There is no commandment which states “Thou shalt not lie.” Bearing false witness against a neighbor isn’t anywhere close to “no, mom, I didn’t have sex last night.” It’s a specific lie, and (IIRC) the entire reason people who believe in the whole God thing swear on a bible to tell the truth in court.
There you go again, trying to quantify emotion. You can’t do that. What you would feel is well established. You don’t get to tell anyone else what they can and can’t feel. Some men feel loss when their SO’s have an abortion. Some don’t. There is no way I’m going to tell those that do “Suck it up. You didn’t lose anything.” They clearly feel they have, and my telling them they’re delusional isn’t going to help them to move past it.
to clarify my post (not that anyone’s asked for clarification):
When many (but not all) people go to the abortion clinic, they have a profound emotional sensation of "Wow, I fucked up."
Women may experience this, and so may the men who made them pregnant. I know I did.
Like all our emotions, we have a moral responsibility to find the true meaning behind “Wow, I fucked up”, and look back at the emotions that led us into the situation.
But instead, some people choose to create mythologies of self-pity and self-loathing (a vulnerable state approved of by many religions) and in so doing deny the moral responsibility of self-examination
They can just as easily parrot the pro-choice cant of Women’s Studies 101 to deny this responsibility. Indeed, it’s a woman’s free choice, but that doesn’t mean it’s an easy choice.
I didn’t encounter picketers at the clinic, but even if I had they would have been like pidgeons shitting on the roof of my life while I experienced its foundation collapsing.
You can’t just tell yourself what you’re supposed to be feeling, and then force yourself to feel it. If only life were that easy.
If they think they’ve actually lost a child, then yes I do. Again, though, I am drawing a distinction between disappointment and sadness over a lost pregnancy and an actual pretense to grieving parenthood.
I’m not telling anybody what to feel. I’m just making an observation they haven’t really lost what they say they’ve lost.
I linked to this article back in post #23, but it might have gotten overlooked in the ensuing debate over Dio’s morals.
From the article:
I guess it’s possible that these, and all the other stories in the article, are fabrications, but i’d bet against it.
Oh, I believe them. I wouldn’t characterize it as “quite a few”, though, and neither should anyone else, mho.
Dio, I’m happy for you and your wife, and I really, really hope everything goes optimally throughout the pregnancy. Two questions here, though:
First, when do you think you’ll begin to feel excited with anticipation about the coming addition to your family?
Second, I always thought you were the very model of a modern major Atheist. What’s the deal with invoking arboreal spirits to ward off bad luck?
The third anecdote in particular is fairly common.
sorry. DOC lost a kid at 29 weeks. nobody can say that pain wasn’t real. felt it kick around and stuff - it counted.
Thanks, I appreciate it. Two questions here, though:
Both of the other two times, I had to actually hold the baby in my arms before it actually sank in. before delivery, it was always just “pregnant wife.” I use the language of “baby” with my wife and we speak in overly anthropomorphized terms about “how the baby’s doing in there,” “I think the baby wants chocolate,” that kind of thing, but I never really, truly feel it as a baby until after it’s born.
It took me a few seconds to figure out what you were referring to here. Well, I guess it couldn’t *hurt, could it?
That’s an interesting position, one which I’d never heard before. However, you’re likely in a very small minority of people who view it that way. The below is from the very first link I got when I Googled “bearing false witness”.
I don’t want to hijack the thread too much, so if the consensus is that this should be taken to another thread, I’ll do just that.
If you think that is bad, look at this article on “pro-life” language from a website that calls itself “abortion facts.”
The absolute worst example:
Oh, I don’t doubt that. I’m not encouraging dishonesty. I simply found it interesting when it was pointed out to me some years back; what people believe the bible says, and what it actually says are sometimes two very different things.
Maybe call them an executioner?
Could we stop trying to talk or argue people out of their feelings, please? No one here is going to change Dio’s extreme position. Hey, it works for him (and his spouse). Let them be. And Dio–stop telling the world what to feel and not feel. Lots of guys believe completely in that “potential” and grieve deeply when their SO gets an abortion or miscarries.
I’ve had an AB. I became depressed afterwards–I was quite shocked by the depth and length of my grief. Never heard of post-AB counseling once from the clinic we went to. Would I do it again? Absolutely. As hard as it was for me, it was the best choice for me and my kids and my marriage at that time.
Hypocritical pro-birth people irritate the fuck out of me–and there are many, many more of them than you think. I’ve found that most anti-abortion supporters tend to back down immediately when confronted by the “what if you (or your daughter) were raped by a black man/Uncle Joe?”. Hateful way to argue, but to me it shows the essential hypocrisy and general weaselliness of their position. If AB is ok in cases of rape or incest–it should be ok, period.
At bottom, I see this whole anti-choice effort as punishment for women for being sexual beings and being sexually active. God knows the men are never preached at to keep it in their pants, and we all know that condoms are the devil’s toys and shouldn’t be used; women are descended from Eve and therefore represent Sin. Abstinence is The Way and the devil take the hindmost. These people make me want to vomit.
So, I’m saying I’m with Sampiro on this one. To hell with her “change of heart”–I don’t believe it for a second. I think she’s found an excellent way to gain prestige and power within her peer group without having to take real responsibility for her actions. She sounds like a professional victim to me. Contemptible, but predictable.
Gotta Concur. Don’t agree personally but don’t have a dog in the hunt. Just got to support the missus.
Yep - wife had a miscarriage. Means nothing to me. Just a sperm factory is all. No veelings 'cause I get testicles
Threads like this remind me to be glad that I’m a gay male and will never have to deal with this issue personally.
Once I was on a long car ride, with some leftover Indian food in a container next to me, and no utensils. I stopped at Bojangles to get some biscuits, and used them to sop up the spicy Indian food. Heaven, I tell ya!
Daniel