But is that legally true? I remember a SCOTUS case where a dude got aquited as SCOTUS ruled he really didn’t know he had to file and income tax return? 
My cursory reading of that case is that it was ruled to conflict with a state code section relating specifically to firearms. Unless I missed something in there, it looks to me like you can’t apply the ruling in the broad way you are attempting.
Is it possible that knife is considered a “snap-blade” as per the ordinance?
This whole thing is getting stranger and stranger. Sierra Madre has a police department; why would the Pasadena PD be enforcing their ordinances?
You may be right, IANAL. But this case is curioser and curioser. That blade does not seem to fit into the definition of “snap blade”.
Reply, good for you for actually learning from this episode.
Of course, the worst fallout might still be to come. If my boyfriend would have acted the way you did, and escalated a very simple “Who are you and what are you doing here?” situation into a possible arrest situation out of sheer stubborness, then that might have been my last date with you. Public intoxication is still a misdemeanor in many jurisdictions and your girlfriend was surely guilty of that. Had the cops been assholes, they could have acted in kind and turned a molehill into a mountain.
You showed some real maturity that night by not drinking and driving. Then you blew it. Ah well, live and learn.
Looking at the knife it has one of those thumb studs which allows the knife to be flipped open quickly. Some knives like that even have a spring system to open them quicker and in some jurisdiction such spring loaded knives can fall awry of existing statute (even though said statutes were typically passed to deal with a different type of spring-knife.) As it is, the Leatherman e304x is specifically advertised as not having a spring, but it’s possible he thought it had a spring.
All he did was write you a citation, police are allowed to be wrong, if you present the knife to a court and show it isn’t a spring knife or isn’t above the legal length you should get off with no fine.
Thanks Reply for standing up for your rights. I appreciate the attempt. They don’t have to take your rights away if you just give them to them.
The statement about crimes in the area could likely be an excuse for what they wanted to do. I do not accept it as necessarily true. I have been rousted by the police in similar circumstances and I stand up for my rights until they threaten to beat me. They do.
Which rights, specifically, are you referring to?
Well I don’t know anything about knives, so I’m not familiar with the nomenclature. But I noticed that the advertisement said “no spring required”, which lead me to believe that whatever that knife does (which seems to involve some sort of trigger operated by the finger) is designed to be similar to what a spring normally does. That’s why I suspected it might violate the statute for that reason, rather than for its length.
It was not a switchblade. It was quite likely legal. The series of stabbings was an excuse. if . They really you were a killer they would have come with guns drawn and calling for backup.
If it was about being in a park after hours it could have been handled much better on both sides.
I like to think I can sit in a park without answering questions from cops.
For instance , I was in front of my house working on the lawn. The police pulled a car with kids in it just across the street from my house. They came on very aggressively. I gravitated toward the car still being on my lawn. The cop saw me and told me to go into the house. I refused. He told me he could arrest me for disobeying a police order. I ignored him because I thought they were going to beat up the kids. His partner talked him into forgetting the whole thing and they drove off.
I do not want to get rousted by the cops and I will resist when I think they are.
The key difference, Gonzomax, is that you were on your private property and he was on public property at a time it was closed to the public.
Yes, we established that.
That’s what we’re discussing, and your knee-jerk reaction hasn’t provided any insight into the question.
No, he entirely failed to stand up for his rights when he CONSENTED TO A SEARCH.
His later attempt to withold his name was sheer stupidity considering he had already waived his 4th Amendment rights by CONSENTING TO A SEARCH. It was de facto reasonable because he consented.
You can withdraw your consent at any time. The 4th amendment does not go away just because you consent to a search.
As I have said in other threads, those that are quickest to say “I know my rights!” usually have no idea what they are talking about.
I forgot to ask the OP one thing. Has this gone to court yet? If the officers were the way you described it and they didn’t want to arrest you in the first place you might not get a misdemeanor on your record. You might be able to plea bargain to a township ordinance violation which shouldn’t show up as a criminal conviction. (YMMV know nothing of CA laws specifically)
One potential problem with that is that just about every court has metal detectors. You might want to think twice before bringing any weapons - even street-legal blades - with you for your court date. Some pictures with a ruler for scale, or promotional material from the manufacturer might serve your purpose just as well.
I’m in and out of courthouses and gov’t buildings all the timem and I often chat with the cops/sheriffs/security. They laugh about the number of times idiots set off the metal detector and are found to be carrying knives or even guns. The buildings generally have obvious signs on the doors announcing that weapons are not permitted, and the detector is out there in the open. If you walked in the door with a weapon and saw that everyone was being searched, no one would stop you from turning right around, heading back out the door, and putting the weapon in your car or stashing it in some bushes.
Oh yeah - props to the OP for thinking about this type of thing, and learning from his actions.
Yes you were totally wrong the police could have many reasons for wanting to know who was where and when even if at that time they were unaware of any crime having been commited and they are not required to inform you anyway why they want to know.
Frankly they have enough on their plate without having their time unnecessarily wasted by drunks.
Im afraid I didnt bother reading the rest of the post after the question etc. etc. and I cannot understand why the question was posed.
It depends on the cops and the judge, because you might be missing this: Most if not all Leatherman Tools at this point have locks. They unfold into pliers, but each " handle side" of the plier contains multiple tools. Each side or handle has a lock. You can quite easily open the knife blade on one side and lock it. You can at the same time open the serrated knife blade on the OTHER side and lock it. Holding the needle nose pliers between two fingers in a fist, you now have a weapon with two locked blades - each protruding from one end of your first- whose total lengthis exactly 15 inches.
I am holding this right now. Well, was till I measured it and put it down on my desk. This is a Leatherman Supertool 200. It has no springs of any kind and cannot be mistaken for a spring-loaded switchblade. It IS, however, a 15 inch long dangerous weapon.
The cops and judge want to be nit-picky because you were nitpicky that night? They can say that the knife/multitool was in fact capable of being quickly opened to 15 inches ( s.i.c.) and that clearly does violate the law.
I opened this device from completely closed to double-blade opened and locked in under 5 seconds. Consider yourself damned fortunate if they do not decide in court to take a ruler and do what I just did.
On the larger issues, do what a cop tells you to do when it comes to this. I have zero love for cops and their endless abuses of power but by your own posts these two were just trying to make sure you owned the car, and didn’t have any outstanding warrants, and wanted you to clear out a park THAT WAS CLOSED.
Let us know what happens.
Cartooniverse
Reply, I am going to go out on a limb here, but hey, it is IMHO, and not GD, right? It really sounds to me like you ran into some pretty OK cops doing their jobs. Have you considered telling them after the fact that you appreciate their restraint?
(Yeah, I tell managers about good customer service, too…)
I agree. I was actually very impressed with the way they handled themselves. Obviously, I had a problem with the principle of the thing at first, but I never had a complaint about the cops themselves and how they behaved – in other words, I didn’t like the rules, but I didn’t blame the cops for enforcing them. They were doing their jobs and they did it with remarkable restraint… and maybe even kindness. Probably more than I deserved.
I actually spoke to one of them (cop #1) right after he uncuffed me that night. I told him “I’ve had a few bad experiences with cops in the past. This wasn’t one of them. I like ya, man. Thank you.” and he said, “I appreciate that.”
From time to time, I see his partner (cop #2, who only said one sentence that whole time) at Starbucks. I have nothing to say to that guy because he barely did anything, but if I see cop #1 again, I’ll probably say hello and ask him if he remembers this incident. I’d still like to get his side of the story someday, if he’s willing to share.
Lust4Life, I wasn’t drunk. There are many legitimate reasons to criticize my actions, but that isn’t one of them. If you’re going to pass judgment without even reading the full thing… you know what… whatever. Think what you want.
And to Cartooniverse and the rest of you: I’ll let ya know what happens after the court date. When it gets to the judge, I’ll probably tell him the (simplified) truth: I was stupid and I made a mistake, but I also don’t want a misdemeanor on my record if it can be helped. The court can decide for itself whether the knife is a violation. If the judge asks for the whole story, I’ll tell it, but I probably wouldn’t volunteer it otherwise. This whole thing is my own damned fault anyway.
Consider that it is entirely possible you and your friend could have been notorious criminals wanted for a string of jewelry heists, and just happened to be sobering up, doing nothing illegal or even untoward at all, in a local park. Along comes a cop, decides he has better things to do than chase you out of the park, and lets you go. Later, someone realizes he was within arresting distance of you and let you walk away. End of career.
I know, it sounds paranoid, but how many times have we heard of wanted criminals or suspects being picked up during otherwise routine traffic stops or ID checks? All that’s required for an officer to legally and properly ask to see your ID is what’s called “probable cause.” Standing on a park bench in the middle of the night gives the officer probable cause.