Checked out the website you offered. Yes indeed, there are numerous risks associated with this chemical-almost as many as there are with this highly dangerous substance , oxygen.
I think you will get better info if you check the UK or some other country’s postings on 2-butoxyethanol … or find one that is at least 2 years or older in the USA. As I shared, the USA no longer has to say there is harm in 2-butoxyethanol, and there are no limits on its use, at least by EPA.
Correction, it was the chemical companies who successfully lobbied EPA to drop its restrictions.
I suspect this chemical for the reduction in sperm in our nation. Lots of articles on it in 1996, and there are really some wild theories as to why. Mine makes more sense. Someone should look in the direction of 2-butoxyethanol.
and for many autoimmune issues & syndromes
i believe the harm of this chemical is so prevalent that everyone could know someone affected. Did you know that Walter Reed Army Medical Center declares that the gulf war vet is no more harmed than the general population. Well, then, 28% of the general population must be harmed from the same or similar chemical.
I’ve said enough. But you should give this chemical more serious thought.
An example - average citizen
I believe you have misquoted me, because I was not asking you if 2-butoxyethanol causes hemolysis. I was asking for a cite showing evidence that hemolysis occurs in CFIDS patients. You have not provided that cite. Furthermore, you’ve just vomited up part of Sigma’s MSDS–and honestly, any MSDS looks scary when you reproduce it the way you’ve done. Watch! I can do it too!
Oh no! That’s the MSDS for acetone, a chemical I spill all over myself routinely! Look at how dangerous it is!
I’m not saying 2-butoxyethanol isn’t dangerous, but you can’t rely on the “Target Organs” section of an MSDS to determine that a chemical is causing some horrible disease. From the above MSDS, I might infer that acetone causes, I dunno, Parkinson’s disease maybe.
…and now 2-butoxyethanol causes SIDS, low sperm count, and a host of autoimmune disorders. Uh-huh. You know, in any research, it’s often a good idea to restrict your claims as much as possible so as to
…prevent saying things you can’t support.
(Sorry about the continued post)
I once saw an MSDS for water that said, among other things, “If in eyes, flush with water.” And isn’t the daily exposure limit for acetone something like 1000 ppm?
I have been made to wear a full chemical protection suit and respirator because I was using a few ml of acetone.
I have also been in a building where the safety nazis give you a hard time for not using the hand rail when ascending or descending stairs.
Those who are harmed have the proof. (Try anyone with CFS, AND the ‘gulf war syndrome’ vets) Doctors say they don’t know what the fatigue is, so why isn’t someone harping about that?
I just recognize the pattern
A better diagram of the structure of EGBE:
http://www.valdezlink.com/gwv/media/tr484.gif
Other things it does:
Prolonged or repeated exposures can cause damage to the liver, kidneys, lymphoid system, blood and blood-forming organs.
And researchers don’t realize that the vapors in eyes and the cuticle areas area primary routes of exposure (shared by a seasoned professional painter) . It’s a wonder that they find any of its harm.
It may not stay in the body long (48 hours is certainly an understatement); the tornado doesn’t hand around long, either … but oh, the damage left behind.
2-butoxyethanol affects glands, too … thyroid, pituitary, adrenal
2-Butoxyethanol causes acute hemolytic anemia in rats, per research
The same MSDS I posted says Oral LD50 is 5800 mg/kg for rats… assuming the cross-species lethality is the same, that means I’d have to drink 417,600 mg of acetone… at a density of 0.7857 g/mL… by my calculations, that means I’d have to drink about a half a liter of acetone to kill myself.
As for chronic exposure, the MSDS says dermatitis may occur. I’ve heard things about links to cancer, but I’m not super worried about it. It’s innocuous enough that nobody raises any eyebrows when undergraduates slop it around, so I don’t know.
Ha! I’m sorry.
Look, you. It’s your job to bring the research here. Show me a link that says hemolysis occurs in CFIDS patients or stop claiming that it happens. Furthermore, it’s okay to say you don’t know why something happens–that’s a conservative and honest claim. Kinda unlike the ones you’re making.
But the doctors and their patients have the proof.
So far all you hear is that doctors don’t believe all these ailments (& surely not that one chemical could do them all) … that it’s all in their heads.
And per definition of CFS, CFIDS, doctors do not know what the fatigue is
That’s a revolting situation - worse than my stating a theory based on talking to a lot of people with known and suspected exposures and looking up everything I can find about it… the law of use: what you spend a lot of time doing, you get good at. So, the picture, just came together
I’d be a great asset to doctors in helping to presceen patients … should the ailment they are stating be considered for 2-butoxyethanol? Is the pattern there?
Actually, quite a few doctors do recognize CFIDS as a real disease, and there is medical research going on into its cause. Have you been keeping up on the research going on at the University of Glasgow? Did you look at those links I posted earlier?
Sorry, Andrew, I missed your links
I’ll check them out
It doesn’t surprise me that Scotland would be aware. They throw around a lot of this type of chemical in oil spill cleanup. We’ve had workers from Valdez, Alaska Alyeska Marine Terminal … travel to Solem Vough, Scotland to get ‘expert advice’
(I’m sure the spelling is wrong, sorry)
Yes, of course some doctors would have recognize this; but who would the average patient go to for a proper diagnosis, even. Isn’t it a ‘catch all’ diagnosis? We don’t know what else it is, and we see the immune system going autoimmine… so CFS, or CFIDS
Do they keep it to themselves? I’m told these things called “journals” exist, in which doctors and medical researchers “publish” case studies, analyses, clinical trials, that sort of thing. The abstracts for these journals are even available for free at PubMed!
Look, here’s one such abstract that suggests mycoplasma infection might be implicated! Oooh, here’s one that talks about immune system dysregulation–hey, didn’t AndrewL post something somewhat similar a few posts back? Odd, I can’t seem to find anything with hemolysis. Or 2-butoxyethanol. Hmm…
What’s worse than acknowledging that one does not completely understand a syndrome, is to pin a cause on it based on poor-quality anecdotal evidence. This can lead attention away from other, more likely causes, as well as encouraging promoters of quack cures, like the ones that promise benefits through “cleansing” and “detoxification”.
They don’t keep it to themselves, because they don’t know.
The first reference was a neurology dept. The fact that they talk about a gene means they think it is hereditary…
My e-mail to them
The second is a very good article, talking about finding certain aspects of the immune system that are overactive and how to turn them down. They think the overactive immune system per se is the cause of fatigue and they do acknowledge that ME (another name) startes out like the flu (I agree)
They don’t seem to realize what I suspect, and that is that the immune system first targets the red blood cells … that is the fatigue.
Also comments on runing out of funding … a step in the right direction
Looks like they don’t know
Somehow I suspect that if anemia and/or depleted/damaged red blood cells were linked to CFS, someone would have noticed long ago. One of the reason’s it’s hard to diagnose CFS is that there aren’t any clear-cut diagnostic signs like anemia or large amounts of dead red blood cells showing up in the urine.
As a data point you might be interested in, my wife has CFS and has blood tests done reguarily. Her red blood cell count has always been at or above normal, and her blood oxygenation level has also always been high when tested, with no indications of hemolytic anemia. She does have unusually low counte of certain white blood cells, which is apparantly not uncommon with CFS. Of course, trying to determine the cause of a disease like CFS based on a few anecdotal cases is probably a bad idea.
I have had interest from one of the govt agencies in their doing a grant - regarding my theory. They asked me to work with a researcher. I wrote a top hematologist as UofW in Seattle, WA and in the last 2 months have had no word back.
This would not surprise me as ‘being there, too’ … but not the cause of CFIDS
One gulf war vet, whom I spoke with on the phone a couple of times, (& in his case, near certain of 2-butoxyethanol harm) **said he had bacteria in his blood**. A year later I thought, no wonder, the immune system is ignoring bacteria and attacking YOU
Now, Andrew, I think this is the key reason doctors don’t look closer at the red blood cells. They appear to be in normal range … & for 15 years or more, so does the hemoglobin. They assume that there is the normal ratio of mature to immature red blood cells. IF they are mostly, or all immature (small-sized) … even if oxygen is there, it can’t be utilized by the body … thus the fatigue. Also red blood cells store iron and needs to utilize it, for one thing, to make red blood cells.
Now, I’ve read that if red blood cells are predominately immature, the other tests cannot be done by computer, but must be done manually. White blood cells and liver tests, will be inaccurate, otherwise.
This is the link on COMPENSATED
Who doesn’t? It’s a zoo in there, and it’s only when things get out of balance that disease occurs. Healthy humans are never sterile (in the microbiological sense, not the reproductive sense). Do autoimmune diseases even correlate with a deficency in normal immune function?
You’ve given a lot of speculation, but absolutely no proof. Your attenoted refutation of the Scottish genetic model contains no facts or data, or even a scientific explanation. Why can’t CFIDS be an inherited disease? Remember, hereditary doesn’t mean that it will appear in every member of a family or clearly down a familial line, especially for a disease as difficult to diagnose as chronic fatigue.
In short, you seem to be saying that CFIDS is caused by 2-butoxyethanol because you want it to be, not because the data points in that direction.
It causes reproductive harm
For the type of infertility it causes, the primary would most likely be something such as spontaneous infertilitly … which is the immune system attacking the sperm. That would fit the pattern of 2-butoxyethanol harm.
For the most part it could cause reproductive harm of any kind: such as growth abnormalities, autism, leukodystrophies, diabetes, brain tumors, leukemia … it’s a long, long list, but mostly autoimmune metabolic issues.
I have done more than most.
I have contributed info worth looking into.
I’m hoping someone of influence picks up on this
It is true that my wife hasn’t had a reticulocyte count test done, but that’e because those are only done if standard blood tests or other symptoms indicate reason to suspect anemia. And since my wife has none of the other symptons of anemia (such as hemoglobin in the urine, depressed hemoglobin or hematocrit levels, elevated bilirubin, or an enlarged speen) exept for fatigue which can be caused by a lot of things, and all of her blood tests except for some of the white blood cell counts are perfectly in the normal range, I think we can rule out autoimmune hemolytic anemia in this case at least. I should point out that the blood test she’s had done aren’t just a matter of counting the number of cells or overall hemoglobin level. These tests include MCV (Mean Corpuscular Volume, which is the average size of the red blood cells) and RDW (Red Cell Distribution Width , or how much the side of the blood cells vary). Hers were completely normal, which would not be the case if a large number of the red blood cells were immature.
Of course, a single (or even several) anecdotal case is not much use for trying to figure out what causes CFS. So do you have any non-anecdotal data to link CFS to autoimmune hemolytic anemia caused by toxin exposure?
Mother-Margaret - i’m not trying to be insulting, but you really should do some research as to how the blood actually works. Immature blood cells (reticulocytes) larger than mature blood cells, not smaller - they lose size in the final stages of maturation. Doctors don’t assume a normal range of blood cells; standard blood tests measure the average size and size distrubution of red blood cells, so any significant change in the radio of reticulocytes to normal red blood cells will be detected. A high level of reticulocytes would also mean blood cells were being destroyed at a high rate, which would show up as hemoglobin in the urine. Reticulocytes contain hemoglobin (in fact, they make it in that stage, before losing the ability as they mature) and can oxygenate tissues, although they’re not as good as it as a mature red blood cell would be. And red blood cells aren’t made by red blood cells, they’re made by the bone marrow. Although reticulocytes do need iron to make hemoglobin, I’m not aware of any indication showing either iron deficiency or hemoglobin deficiency in CFS.
Cite for any of this? I find it hard to believe that an unusual reticulocyte to red blood cell level would somehow throw the entire blood test results off in such a way as to appear perfectly normal, especially since standard blood tests include tests specifically to measure red blood cell size.
I see you have more info on the blood than I do.
I do think that there could be trace blood in urine, and the doctors dismiss it (not mention it) as it doesn’t match what they see in the blood work ups.
The retic rate doesn’t help that much either. This one woman who was in the medical field & interested in it said that it only spikes at 2.5 days after exposure. So it would be a good test for doctors to consider when they don’t know whether the FLU is the flu or this particular chemical poisoning. But after that it doesn’t help. Whatever it’s doing, it is doing in normal ranges. One man who had the pattern of harm, and the possible exposure in 1989 shared what the doctor found who did order a reticulocyte count. It was below the normal range … and still his RBCs were borderline normal, but just barely.
Doesn’t your wife have FATIGUE, Andrew? That is a primary symptom of CFS & CFIDS. Once I thought - check for these things because not all symptoms are present at the same time … there is a different ‘look’ in the beginning years vs the later years.
I think it would help to LOOK at the red blood cells, as the key is there somewhere AND there is an actual test for hemolytic anemia. One woman shared all about her mother’s tests for AIHA she had saved her mom’s medical records from 1975. She was about 38 and was married to a gulf war vet. They both had the symptoms. I felt so sorry for her, but had a look at information that was helpful in understanding.
I think good nutrition and glyconutrient food supplements is the best help for this group, more than medications, unless the meds are essential. They say for the chemically poisoned they should avoid other chemicals as much as possible