I thought Babylon 5 was supposed to be serious sci-fi... [spoilers]

So I’ve started watching Babylon 5 lately. I’ve gotten a little ways into the second season, but somethings bugging me. I never watched it when it was on the air, but I’ve always heard it touted as the more ‘realistic’ sci-fi series - no teleporting, no particle of the week, real politics, that sort of thing. And I’ll certainly admit that it does a far more convincing job of world-building than, say, Star Trek.

But seriously, what’s up with all the bad sci-fi tropes? So far, in one season, we’ve got telepathy that works better via touch, an alien device that transfers ‘life energy’, an alien going through metamorphosis to turn half-human, and the rebirth of alien souls into human bodies! Not to mention the omniscient, omnipotent conspiracy, the way-mysterious, ancient threat-to-all-life, and the planet full o’ alien technology that the station happens to be orbiting. Yeesh.

I guess I was expecting a little better from all the hype. It’s definitely nice that there are some real politics going on (although at least in the first few episodes the ambassadors had unreasonably large authority to commit their home governments to things), and that every episode doesn’t end with the status-quo being preserved, but there’s WAY too much mysticism going on for my liking. I suppose I was a little spoiled by watching Planetes (garbage collection in space! Woo!) right before, but now I’m getting a hankering for some proper, mundane sci-fi, with stricter rules. Here’s what I’m thinking so far:

No destiny, no prophecy - are we doing sci-fi or fantasy?

No time travel (really!)

No mysticism - which is to say, the characters can (and should!) have beliefs, but I find it a little hard to buy that the Minbari can freaking SCAN SOMEONE’S SOUL and find out who they were in a past life. You’d think if there was such concrete evidence of souls and whatnot, we might have noticed by now.

No telepaths - this one I’m a little less strict about, because I’ve seen it done well, but I’d rather just check the paranormal at the door, thanks.

No bad biology - if human-alien hybrids are possible, the world had better already be populated with people mixing themselves with animals, and people who get off on them. And no ‘universal cures’ that affect all species, and NO LIFE ENERGY. Please.

No sending your command staff on away missions - this is a big one for me. Managers do not hop in shuttles and go investigate alien ships. That is why you have subordinates. I’d really like to see a show with two sets of characters - one command group, and one first contact/EVA/exploration group.

No way-too-powerful-to-be-taken-seriously conspiracies/unknown villains - this is part of my nothing-happens-in-a-vacuum pet peeve. There is no such thing as a universally-competent group of humans, things leak. I can almost buy a large, external threat that no one’s heard about, but not one that has to go sneaking around at the same time. Plus, really, no one notices, not just the assembly of huge, overwhelmingly powerful ships, but the whole freaking species? Really?

Finally, no having everything of importance in the universe happen near your main characters. Why the hell do you need to smuggle stuff through Babylon 5 in order to blow up a ship in Earth’s system? Why the HELL would there be a big, important alien fighting championship on a brand new space station with 250,000 inhabitants? This one is actually less of a big deal for B5, since a lot of it has to do with the importance of the station, but there are a few instances of WTF.

Whew. All that said, I’m enjoying the show, and I’m definitely gonna keep watching. Just had to get some pet peeves off my chest first.

All is not as it appears to be. Almost all will be explained.

And Season 5 didn’t really happen.

I love Babylon 5, but I don’t know why anyone would think the “science” aspect was any more realistic than Star Trek. On the other hand, I do think the characters are more realistic than most Star Trek characters, or at least, more complex. The characters are a lot more morally ambiguous, and they actually grow and evolve over the course of the show (and I don’t mean “evolve into Human-Minbari hybrids” :p)

It’s called a plot arc, give it time. Most of the things you’re concerned about actually are dealt with in the course of the show.

I am not sure there can be a dramatic television show produced that is able to bypass the constraints of the viewing audience. It has to have a certain amount of constant drama going on at all times and cannot be bound by einstein space or time. Firefly was able to keep things in the same solar system, with vehicles that are not out of our reach today, sorta. Yet they did not mention , at least that I know of , how the colonists got to that system and added all the extra planets.

Space opera fans take things as a given , in regards to how an author writes his novels and babylon 5 had a dash of something for everyone , which explained its appeal. Things heat up more in the next two seasons and get kinda…well, I’ll let you finish season 5.

If I remember correctly, those tropes that you speak of were stand alone episodes with the exception of Delenns transformation. To bring the series into line with his multi-arc stories, I would assume that rules had to be broken, with the time travel episodes. After all the star trek time travel eps , this concept is now probably ingrained in both the viewing audience and the folks who make the shows. The stand alones were the filler inbetween the arc’s.

It gets better. Season two had the show just stretching its legs after going through a cast upgrade. Tell ya what , finish season three and then return to this thread and see if there is anything different in the way you view the series.

The part about the ambassadors having power is probably hearkening back to the napoleonic wars , with travel time measured in weeks and months at a time, our man in what everstan usually had alot more discretion on how matters were dealt with.

Ivonova/Zathras : 2012

Declan

I’m not entirely sure what you guys are getting at. In the show there really are telepaths, and soul-scanners and what not. That’s not explained away. So it’s not as if it’s a realistic vision of the future, if that’s what the OP was expecting.

There is eventually a reason given for why there are Minbari souls in human bodies (I won’t say what to avoid spoiling anything), but that doesn’t change the fact that the Minbari apparently really do have soul-scanning technology, which is what the OP seems to be objecting to.

The B5 universe also really does have time travel, and prophecy/destiny, and human-alien hybrids.

Actually, the Minbari were…mistaken about that.

Time travel is not routinely available. It only seems to happen in very limited circumstances. The telepaths are explained away…late in season 4, or maybe in Season 5.

There is a certain amount of “magic” involved, but that’s just part of the B5 universe.

Oh, I’ll keep watching - it’s damn good TV, even with some of the stuff I mentioned. I guess I was just hoping the science would be more realistic, as well as the politics. Incidentally, since they apparently have real-time communication with the people back home, I still say the ambassadors power was way overdone. However, it was only really the first few episodes that it happened, so I’m certainly not gonna condemn the show for it.

The first thing you should understand is that B5 is hailed as being great space opera, not great science fiction. The whole point of the show is invoking these tropes, but doing so in a way that’s as realistic as possible within the confines of the trope.

IIRC, most of the “prophecy” involves people who simply know more about what’s really going on, but are unwilling or unable to say more. I don’t think there’s much (any?) actual see-the-future type prophecy.

Generally, I agree, but I think B5 handles it really well. It’s an extremely rare occurance, and it’s tied in very tightly to the over all story of the universe.

The Mimbari are several hundred years more advanced than we are. Why would the ability to “scan souls” necessarily be something we’d have discovered on our by this point? Besides, the Mimbari believe that they can scan souls. It doesn’t mean that they necessarily are scanning souls. In a later season, a much more mundane (relatively speaking) explanation is given for this.

This is one of the times when it’s done well, IMO.

Again, you’re looking at the product of technology that’s (in this case) thousands of years ahead of what humans have in the show. In this case, it’s not even something that the Mimbari know how to do: D’lenn was using Vorlon technology to effect her transformation, and the impact of her transformation has far reaching effects for D’lenn, and for Mimbari society. It’s not something that would be lightly undertaken, even if it were available to the average person in the B5 universe.

Guilty as charged on the life energy thing, though. It’s something that comes up a few more times in the series.

Babylon 5 is usually pretty good about this, particularly after the first season.

Again, this is something that B5 gets right. The human conspiracies are porous. They work, but there are a lot of leaks, both before and after the conspiracy is set in motion. I have less trouble with the idea of a sufficiently advanced civilization hiding its existence, particularly if it’s more advanced than the other civilizations in space. Space if fuckin’ big, and in the B5 universe, a whole lot of it has never been explored. It’s not unreasonable that a species located sufficiently far from the center of galactic civilization could hide itself, particularly if it makes a habit of annihilating anyone that gets too close.

There’s a handful of B5 episodes that you’re better off pretending never existed. The alien fighting championship is about five of them.

That said, a whole lot of stuff happens in the B5 universe that’s nowhere near Babylon 5 itself. A lot of background is unfolded by having the main characters watch news reports from some place on the other side of the galaxy. Babylon 5 is still the flashpoint for a lot of action, both because of the nature of the station, and because of the nature of dramatic television, but this is another of the things that make the show really stand out from other sf. You really get a sense of a whole universe out there, whirling away without any input from the main characters.

You’ll see more homeworld control over some of the ambassadors in Seasons 2 and 3.

I’m very much not a science guy, but I’ve read that the space fighter combat stuff is reasonably realistic.

As for the “unknown” uber aliens…well…not every race is entirely truthful about what they know early in the series.

Ok, I just watched another episode, and I have a new rule: no invisible, noncorporeal (although apparently still bipedal) energy beings that suck out organs.

Also, can we ditch the crappy, dramatic lighting and steam pipes everywhere please? I can deal with weird architecture, but the lighting-through-a-grid thing has got to go.

Anyways, I should mention that Babylon 5 is hardly the worst offender here, and I’m starting to get used to the slightly-fantastic setting. But now that I’ve started, I keep thinking of new rules…

A nuanced morally ambiguous multi-layered wizard did it.

The Minbari weren’t entirely accurate in what they thought was going on, but that’s irrelevant to the point the OP was making. He’s objecting to the fact that they had soul-scanning technology at all. Which they did in fact have, unless I’m totally misremembering things.

In case this isn’t clear, I’ll go ahead and use a spoiler box to be more specific.

I know that it wasn’t actually Minbari being reincarnated as humans. Rather, Cmdr. Sinclair had Valen’s soul because he was Valen, by means of time travel and whatnot. But unless I’m misremembering, they real did “scan his soul” and determine he had the soul of Valen. They were right about that, they just had the wrong hypothesis for how the soul got there. I don’t read the OP as objecting to the notion of Sinclair being the reincarnation of Valen, but rather to the fact that souls are detectable and can be scanned in the first place.

The Minbari triluminary doesn’t scan souls…

… it scans DNA. Specifically, it scans for Valen’s DNA.

That having been said, the Soul Hunters are definitely putting something in those little globes. Is it really a soul? Who knows? Some questions aren’t answered in real life, so they aren’t on the show, either.

There are at least three major characters whose deaths are foretold well in advance of when they occur. And at least one villain’s death is pretty accurately predicted, but there wasn’t really anything supernatural about that one.

Major Spoilers!

[spoiler]Londo foresees his and G’Kar’s deaths at each others hands. His death is also more-or-less predicted at some point, when someone prophecies that Vir and Londo will both be Emperor – one after the other is dead.

The third major character whose “death” is foreseen is Sheridan. (“If you go to Zahadum, you will die.”) Plus, Sheridan gets to talk to the Delenn from the future at some point, who also warns him about Zahadum.

Also, Vir totally called Morden’s death, but there wasn’t anything supernatural in that prediction.[/spoiler]

Hmmm…gonna have to spoiler my response, too…and strongly suggest the OP not read any of the spoiler boxes.

I think the “soul scanner” was actually an advanced form of DNA analysis. They did not detect Valen/Sinclair’s soul, they matched DNA. They extrapolated DNA to include souls as part of their religion…sorta.

Well, refresh my memory. Because I distinctly remember that at one point it was stated that they had found a Minbari “soul” in Sinclair. Was that just a lie, or really absurd poetic license, or what?

See spoiler boxes above.

Ah. Yeah, I remember that now.

My problem with B5 was that the writing, direction, and most of the acting (except for Delenn and G’Kar) were so goddamned hamfisted. I liked the moral ambiguity and complex themes and all that, but it hammered on ideas long after they became dull. At times it was almost a self-parody.