I’m slowly starting to realise that macs are indeed the right choice for some people. People who want an appliance rather than a tool.
I won’t buy a mac because I can’t build my own. My computers are mine. I lovingly picked out, purchased and put together each and every piece of hardware. I chose every bit of software (at least on my linux box). I like being absolutely in charge of my computers.
Someone mentioned selling an old PC vs selling an old mac. This actually struck me as a really weird idea. Why would you sell an entire computer? I replace the parts that need upgrading, and sell the old parts, or just keep them until I have enough sitting around to make another machine.
I know I’m not the typical PC user, but I would be absolutely stifled on a mac.
Nerd, I know exactly what you mean. Right now I’m using a Windows machine that I built (It was built by trial and error basically, since it’s how I learned to do it), and I have enough parts lying around to build another one (Although this one will probably be a linux machine).
People always talk about customizing their own Macs, but I personally don’t know anybody that tinkers with the hardware of their macs, as opposed to the dozens of people I know who build their own computers for fun.
Some of my friends write their own code for windows to completely optimize their systems, and would arguably run better than many modern mac machines.
Macs do have some awesome characteristics. Having an ultimately stable os, and the powerful hardware (Although the ATI graphics cards can suck my nuts…it will be a great day when Nvidia finally enters the mac market). I, however, have several problems with macs. They’re not versatile enough for my tastes (I have had limited experience with them, and it wasn’t enjoyful). And I utterly HATE the stupid mac mice. I hate them. Especially the single button mice, and I haven’t seen many 2 button mice.
I have my problems with both PC’s and Mac’s, but for now Mac’s don’t have my favor.
I’m not going to bother getting too deep into this, because I really don’t care that much. However, when I was in college taking graphic design, we used Macs and they were nothing but trouble. I’m not claiming that using PCs would have been a piece of cake, but if I had a nickle for every time I got errors for trying to open Paintshop and a telnet client at the same time, I’d have quite a few more dollars in my pocket than I do now. My favorite? The out of memory - close applications error for trying to run two fairly small applications at the same time.
Now wait… everytime I tell Mac users about this, they say stuff about having memory allocated wrong and whatnot. Excuse me? I thought these were supposed to be the miracle “you don’t need to fix the settings” machines that you could plug in and go. I know my PC never bothers to tell me I have my memory allocated wrong when trying to open mIRC and Netscape at the same time. And it certainly never continued to give me the same error after closing every open application.
My point? Simply this – hearing things like “what is a BIOS. . . is that something that gets corrupted in PCs but Macs don’t need?”, I have to roll my eyes. Get a computer, learn how the thing works (it’s not all that hard and I’ve never had to look at any 3000 page manuals in all my years of PC use) and go with it. I’m sure that Macs have some wonderful traits. On the other hand, my PC gives me a blue screen about once every three weeks (which is a lot less errors than I ever got with the Macs) and has a lot more software available for it, both for purchase and share/freeware on the net, so I don’t see myself changing sides anytime soon.
I don’t care if you change sides - I don’t have stock in Apple. And I use both platforms. I don’t intend to give up my PC. (In fact, it is away being upgraded right now.) But I think you have answered the whole issue here - “learn how it works”. You probably got a lot of errors on your Macs at school because you didn’t learn how it works. Also, in a school setting, things are probably going to get more munged up by other people.
Anyway, good or bad, allocating memory is part of Mac use. If you don’t do it, you’ll get errors. If you do do it, you’ll get less errors. You can’t expect to not do something that is important to smooth operation and still expect it to work without errors. That doesn’t make sense. Just like I don’t uninstall an application in Windows the same way I do with a Mac. With a Mac, you usually can just drag the unwanted program to the trash. You have to use an “Uninstall” program with Windows. It’s a pain in the ass, but that’s the way you have to do it. If I didn’t uninstall programs the proper way for Windows, I bet I’d get error messages on my PC as well.
Myrr has been complaining on another thread about how you can’t restart an iMac, you have to unplug it to restart it - or so he thought. In reality, there is a reset button on the side of the iMac. It’s a little bit of a pain to use, but it is THERE. But Myrr didn’t know that. I think this is a not-uncommon problem. People complain out of ignorance. “Read the Manual” is a good idea sometimes!
As far as my PC - I get lots of blue screens of death - a friend of mine is getting random black screens of nothingness all the time. So far on my iMac, I get an occasional error, and freeze. Almost always involving IE 4.5. So I think it’s a Microsoft issue, more than a Mac issue, actually… Anyway, in my experience, I get less crashes and problems with my Mac than with my PC. And I also have not felt too much of a lack of software. I get MacAddict’s magazine every month, which comesbundled with a CD packed full of software. More software than I’ll ever need.
You seem to have completely missed my point. My point was that Macs are not necessarily the easy flying things that Mac advocates commonly make them out to be. If someone was to say “I tried to get rid of such-and-such program by dragging it into the recycle bin and that screwed up my PC”, we’d all be treated to hearing how Macs are vastly superior because you can just drag things into the trash rather than having to uninstall (which is easy as hell anyway, but I digress). I say that Macs have some memory allocation issues that I found troublesome, and I’m told to “Read the manual”. Excuse me? Hell, if you read the manual the PC comes with, you’d have a hell of a lot less issues as well with that computer (not you per se, but users in general). Which led me to saying that you should get a computer and learn how to use it. Doing so will make your computer experience a lot easier, be you Mac user or PC user.
Actually, re-reading, you did pretty much get my point – I’m just full of piss and vingar tonight. But I stand by my claim of Mac user hypocrisy. At least PC users admit that using a PC can be harder; they just feel it’s worth the extra effort. Mac users seem to claim that it’s easier and better without admitting to any faults.
Thanks - I think we are on the same wavelength, for the most part.
I love my Mac, but I don’t HATE my PC. It annoys me, and it is harder to get around. And there are “issues” it has that I don’t have with my Mac. But I still don’t regret having a PC. If I didn’t have a PC, I’d have to install “Virtual PC” or one of those other Windows emulator. There are things you need to have a PC for in this world. So I am glad I have one.
I do find the Mac easier than a PC. I can think of several things off the top of my head that are MUCH better on a Mac. But it isn’t like the Mac is perfect, you are right. I confess, I was realistic when I got my Mac. I got books. Lots of books - and I actually opened them. I joined Mac mailing lists, and asked lots of questions. Because of this, my Mac experience has been pretty good. If I didn’t do this, sure, I bet I would have encountered more snags than I expected. But this would be true with Mac or PC. Ya gotta read up about them a little. Sure, you can stumble around without doing that, but then you are more apt to complain about no “reboot” button, or some such nonsense.
It’s not coincidental that Apple owns less than 10% of the computer market.
If you want something that’s big appeal is it’s color, buy a mac. If you want to be different, for example, if Dr. Pepper is appealing to you, buy a mac. If you want to talk with your fellow users like you’re both into some special secret that only you get, buy a mac.
If you want a real computer that has real applications available on it and plenty of potential 3rd party expansion options, buy a PC.
Oh please. So it’s just all about color? Do all these art houses and graphics firms only care about pretty colored boxes when they use Macs for their graphics/video/publishing work? Is JPL concerned about colored boxes when they use Macs? What about Hallmark cards? So they don’t use “real” computers, huh? How do they get any work done on these not “real” computers, then? Obviously they are getting work done, and it’s getting done on a…(gasp!) MAC.
Macs aren’t for everyone. If they are not for you, fine. But don’t act all condescending to the many artists/creative types (or anyone else) who is very happy and productive using a Mac. That’s silly.
And Bill Gates KNEW from the start that it wasn’t the hardware that would make him rich and ultimately make PC’s affordable for the average person, but that it was the SOFTWARE! Need proof? Or perhaps the fact that he is indeed the richest man in the world will suffice? Maybe that was just luck. All coincidental. Arrogant bastards.
Anyway… There is no need to have this discussion AT ALL! Apple should simply port its OS to other systems and viola! We would see how well it really does compete with Windows. My guess is that it would do considerably well and increase Apples marketshare to at least equal with the MS OS. HOWEVER, WHEN YOU’RE AN ARROGANT, BULLHEADED ASSHOLE, you “stay the course” and say fuck everybody. When they did try Mac clones it was only under the agreement that the company had to build a complete system, i.e. they had to be in the hardware business and from my understanding use the Motorola processor. There’s no reason Mac OS can’t be ported to Intel processors. Especially since Intel now uses RISC technology.
I don’t understand the sympathy and ESPECIALLY the loyalty for Apple and the Mac. If Apple truly wants to compete, then they should license their OS. End of discussion.
Until then, Mr. Jobs, shut the fuck up and quit whining that Microsoft doesn’t play fair. You got one-upped. Deal with it, asshole and move on. EVEN MORE, TAKE NOTES AND LEARN SOMETHING ABOOUT THE FREE MARKET ECONOMY!
Not relevant at all to the discussion, but to address it anyway…Microsoft was a software company from the start. Apple was a combined hardware/software company from the start. I don’t think Jobs and Wozniak sat around at first thinking, “now what strategy will allow us to become the richest men in the world?”
Of course, those who actually use the products realize that the tight integration between hardware and software, unavailable when each component in your machine is made by one of a few dozen different companies, is one of Apple’s biggest advantages.
Or when you’re making tons of money with a quality product, for that matter.
Loyalty to a brand that one has had success with and feels is superior is much more understandable than random and almost hateful (and laughable) bashing of something that one does not use. You can use PCs, and while I think you use an inferior product, I’m not going to go running around on message boards SCREAMING about what an idiot you are for using what you like.
And shipping more than a million machines per quarter and having an installed base of tens of millions more clearly is not competing. No, one must achieve complete domination of an industry in order to be said to “compete”.
I don’t know if you’re up on legal news, but the Apple-Microsoft lawsuit was ended several years ago. I haven’t heard anyone from Apple (certainly not Jobs) making any complaints about Microsoft’s practices in recent history. Apple is well aware that the race for quantity is hopeless; fortunately, they’re in the habit of turning out quality.
Anyway, I’ve owned both Macs and Wintel boxes for years. I can program for both OS’s so I know the internals on both fairly well. I’m still pretty neutral on which is “better”.
It is a fact that there is substantially more software available for the Wintel platform. I don’t think this will change any time soon, even though Apple gained a stronger foothold in the market with the iMac. There are other business and computer-culture issues that contribute to the lag.
From a purely technical standpoint, my only beef with MacOS is memory management, which I personally believe sucks on the Mac.
The Apple’s UI is also more intuitive for the technically declined. But if you’re competent on both platforms (and I do mean competent, not an expert) this may not be a big point for you.
I have personally tended towards using the Mac for more creative work (visual design, music recording) and the Wintel for more technical work (programming, accounting, most of my day-to-day work).
The Mac used to have a huge advantage in supporting the creative stuff, but that gap has been closing rapidly in the last few years, and I’m not sure there’s much of a distinction there anymore either.
If you have the opportunity to play with a Mac for a while, I’d suggest you do it, and let your gut tell you how you feel about it. Some people instantly love it, others don’t much care…
I’m sorry, but I couldn’t quite make out whether you refer to Apple or Microsoft as “AN ARROGANT, BULLHEADED ASSHOLE” that “stay[s] the course” and “say[s] fuck everybody.” Sounds to me like a reasonably accurate description of MS’s behavior during its recent antitrust case – whatever you may think of the merits of the government’s case.
There is, as you say, no insuperable technical obstacle to porting the MacOS, but once you decouple the OS from the hardware, you’re left with something that would necessarily be no more stable and reliable than Windows and would require just as much screwing around with settings as Windows does; i.e., you’d pretty much obliterate one of the main advantages the MacOS and hardware platform enjoy. The MacOS is what it is largely because Apple has either made or closely controlled the design of every computer that’s ever been made to run it. The MacOS with crappy manufacturer-written drivers for every hardware component and mediocre hardware in general would gain nothing and lose much.
As for your statement that “Apple should simply port its OS to other systems and viola! We would see how well it really does compete with Windows.” I’m not sure how well a viola would run either MacOS or Windows.
You go on to speak as if there were some obvious inherent superiority on the part of Intel’s chips that has somehow escaped my notice over the last 12 or so years. Could you explain in technical terms from whence this superiority arises? (Note: market share is not a technical factor).
Obviously. Consider, then, if you’re able, that there probably is a reason for it. Is it perhaps that those of us who’ve been dealing with Microsoft since most of its employees were still watching Transformers cartoons are aware of how sorry the state of personal computing might well still be if Mr. “Nobody will ever need more than 640K of RAM” Gates had not been pushed into adopting the innovations introduced by other software developers? Is it that we appreciate that Apple is willing to take chances on new ideas, some that prove to be good (whereupon they’re adopted by Microsoft as well) and some that don’t? Is it that we value the work we do with computers more than the work we do for computers, and appreciate the efforts of a company that understands that and tries to increase the former and decrease the latter? Is it that we don’t harbor in the back of our minds the same suspicion about Apple that we do about Microsoft: namely, that much of the complexity and difficulty inherent in configuring and maintaining networks of Windows boxes is deliberately introduced, the better to continue to reap the profits to be had from books, training and certification programs, subscriptions to TechNet and other support programs, and from all of those support calls themselves?
Query: Which major OS developer has attempted to cement its dominant position by ensuring that anyone who wants an IS job in an organization of any size will have to undergo indoctrination using materials prepared by the OS developer, at considerable cost to either the individual or their company, and will therefore have a huge amount of their own time and money invested in that OS developer’s products, making them much more resistant to the use of products from other developers? Brilliant marketing, but it quickly begins to smell of an attempt to establish the One True OS.
I don’t argue that Microsoft doesn’t have a perfect right to do all, or at least most, of the things they’ve done and to reap the benefits therefrom. But I do believe it in my own best interest, and the interest of those who will be using computers five years from now, to support and reward other companies that offer alternatives to Microsoft and innovate where Microsoft will not. That’s the explanation for my loyalty to Apple – they’ve certainly done plenty of things through the years that I disagreed with, but I’d rather have them around to make those mistakes than not.
Oh, nurse? I think it’s time for Mr. BlockHead’s meds.
From what I understand (not that I am a professional, and know this first-hand) the Mac still dominates in the graphics world, and other “arty” stuff. Though it is true, PCs are trying to catch up, and are considerably better these days for graphics. From what I have heard (doing informal “polls” among arty types) most established companies prefer Macs. On the graphic art forums I’ve checked out, artists who use Windows complain about feeling left out because they use PCs. And from what I’ve heard, the person who goes into a service bureau with a PC disk often gets winced at, and is charged extra so the disk can be converted to Mac format. Since I got my Mac to use for graphics, I was interested to know the future of Macs in the graphics world, so I did this informat “research”. I feel comfortable with my choice - I have every reason to believe that Macs are an excellent graphics machine. Certainly understanding how to use one is no detriment to the graphic artist.
This is EXACTLY the way I am seeing it. I just started using a Mac, I have no long-time “attitude” about Macs vs. PCs. They are all computers to me.
What I have noticed since getting my Mac is this: I rarely see a Mac person on a message board “scream” about how PCs suck. Usually they write pretty well-thought out, amusing, and gracious posts. Sure, they’ll take their shots about why they don’t prefer PCs, but it’s not a blood match to them. However, many PC people “scream”, are condescending and insulting. They take it all WAAAY too seriously. I don’t get this.
When people spend a lot of money on a piece of machinery, they do it for a reason. They prefer it for whatever reason. PCs have their strengths, and there are perfectly good reasons why someone might prefer a PC. Same with Macs. So what’s the big deal here?
Another thing I don’t get—PCs dominate the market. It isn’t like Macs are going to take over the computer world anytime soon. So why to PC people get all rabid about Macs? They are a small minority. And, therefore - Mac people are a small minority. Because of small numbers, you will encounter far less Mac people than PC people out there. So why does the whole concept of Macs, and Mac-heads bother some people so much? It isn’t like there are big gangs of marauding Mac people roaming the streets, causing trouble! Get over it! It’s just a computer choice. Argue about the benefits of one platform other the other platform, but why the need to insult, and “scream”?
This is absolutely true. Creative types are still extremely loyal to Macs, even though PCs graphic capabilities have caught up. However, I propose that this is really because of brand loyalty, i.e. the same reason I continue to eat Jif peanut butter. The other stuff is just as good, but it’s what I’ve always eaten.
But even the hardest Mac fan must admit that their recent resurgence hasn’t been because of any super new technological breakthroughs; it’s those cool colors.
Errr, did you read any of the above posts? Mac users are extremely brand loyal and love nothing better than to scream about PCs crashing or Bill Gates being a monster or any other anti-PC rant.
If there is any sort of radical change in computer architecture, who will come out better? You can argue both ways with some validity, but I suspect Macs will accomplish major shifts more easily because they have kept such tight control on their product. The creation and support of PCs is disseminated over a much wider spectrum of companies, all of whom will have to retool in a coordinated way.
Do you all think there could be such a major change anytime soon? (this isn’t rhetorical, I’m not a computer expert. I’m really asking).
I’ll admit that it hasn’t been any particular technological breakthrough, and that the design of the iMac has appealed to a segment of the potential computer market concerned with criteria other than raw technical specs.
I hope you and the rest of the MS supporters will also admit that Microsoft’s dominance hasn’t been due to any super new technological breakthroughs either, however, and that if you scratch anything exciting coming out of Redmond you’ll find that the technology originated elsewhere.
We just went through a sea-change on the back side: Macs have dropped serial ports (on every Mac since the first), ADB ports (on every Mac since the SE and Mac II), and essentially dropped SCSI (on every Mac since the Mac Plus); meanwhile, although the PC market is much more fragmented, we’re seeing the end of the parallel port, the PC serial port, the mouse port, and the keyboard port, plus the death of the ISA expansion card bus (I, being a Mac person, am less able to tell you how long these things have been around but in each case it they’ve been around at least 10 years, often closer to 20). In their place, on BOTH platforms, are USB ports (mice, keyboards, modems, printers, various other doohickeys) and Firewire ports (scanners, external hard drives, video-in, peripheral-sharing). The PCI slot has been around for some time now; on the PC it coexisted with the ISA expansion slot which is in its death throes; on the Mac, it replaced the NuBus expansion slot rather suddenly a few years ago.
Changes anticipated:
the move from 32-bit processors and OS architectures that support only them to 64 and 128 bit processors and newer versions of our OS’s that can take advantage of them. Slow; don’t refuse to invest now out of fear of this change.
the move from analog video to digital video. I wouldn’t hold off on a monitor or video card purchase; I doubt that analog video will die suddenly so much as fade gradually from the scene.
the move from single-CPU to multiple-CPU computers for average everyday home and office use. Don’t let this one catch you saying “huh?”. Don’t buy any computer that doesn’t look upgradable to more than one processor unless you really don’t care at all about flexibility, responsiveness, and raw speed. Win 2000 and Mac OS X are designed to run on multiple processors and that is what folks will be using tomorrow. But your OS and your apps will still work on a single-processor machine if you insist on going the one-cylinder route. (Just don’t block my lane).
wireless networking. not for the big office, which is gigabit ethernet city, but everyone else – anyone who could think of doing their network from a single hub – who the heck wants all those damn wires? expect cross-platform standards to emerge. expect Apple to provide some (albeit perhaps not inexpensive) upgrade if AirPort isn’t it. PC users who buy wireless net will have to reinvest if the emerging standard is not supported by their hardware.
DVD. 4+ gigs of disk gradually supplants the CDROM with which its drives are backwards compatible. Nice if you can write to them too. A computer with CDROM only is like a computer with single-density floppy drive limitations was 8 years ago. Don’t buy one. You won’t be able to load new software after awhile.
1280 x 1024. Minimum monitor resolution on your primary monitor at millions of colors (True Color). I said primary monitor – you DO have at least one other video card and monitor, don’t you?
And the keyboard of the future is…missing? Not for us old fogies who will pay for them because we can touch-type at 60 wpm or better, but your kids or grandkids will dictate to the computer. They already know how to talk; they have to learn how to type. You do the math. Speech recognition becomes mainstream, 2-3 years.
::puts dust cover back on crystal ball::
I was talking about “screaming” and “shouting” on this and other message boards more specifically. Look at Monster’s posts. Full of all caps (“shouting”) and ranting. Look at your previous condescending post about the Mac is “not a real computer”. And so many other anti-Mac people’s attitude here.
I have not been a Mac user long enough to be that loyal to the brand. The little bit of time I’ve had it, I like it. God Forbid! I tried it, and I like it, and yet I am insulted and told that I have not chosen a “real computer”. How rude!
When I got my first computer, a PC (not yet 3 years ago) I noticed a lot of PC people just turn backflips to tell me about how bad bad bad Macs are. And I find out now that some of the things they told me were not even true, or were old news. The anti-Mac vehemence on the PC side when I mentioned “What about Macs?” was out of proportion to reality. They are JUST COMPUTERS. Some of the Mac people I met were fed up with PC dominance and would express their irritation. And yeah, if you asked them about their feelings, they could rant a bit. But none of them flipped out and freaked out on me when they found out I had a PC. Nor did they insult me in the same manner that the PC people have, now that I have a Mac. No Mac person told me I didn’t have a “real computer” because I had a PC. So, from my perspective, PC people have more of a chip on their shoulder than Mac people. Just from my personal experience.
As far as PCs being just as good as Macs in graphics - I don’t think that’s true yet. I think PCs are catching up, but from my informal “poll”, Macs still have important graphics software that is not available to PCs, and apparently Macs are still better with certain publishing tasks. Some of it’s over my head, but the artists I consulted were quite specific about the areas that Macs still technically excelled. And I also have read (on another thread) where Macs excel in video. (If I remember correctly.) And then there’s the whole Velocity Engine thing and Photoshop.
Anyway, in my experience, I get less crashes and problems with my Mac than with my PC. And I also have not felt too much of a lack of software. I get MacAddict’s magazine every month, which comesbundled with a CD packed full of software. More software than I’ll ever need.