Is it really scaring the pants of an intruder you’re interested in, seems to me simply brandishing the thing and screaming should be enough to loosen the bowels of the average housebreaker. You, know a “real” swordfight lasts between 1 and 10 seconds, so you could have you hypotherical sword wielding burglar skewered and ruining your carpet before he even knows you’re in the room.
But if you’re into the fun and art of swordplay,I second ( third? ) the SCA guys. I’m currently learning katana techniques from an SCA member, but I’m into it just for show. What I do is take a practice wooden katana, cover the “blade” in kevlar, dunk it in white gas, light it on fire, and dance around like I know what I’m doing.
A big honkin’ two handed sword would be great for this, and I plan on getting one, just as soon as I get my Conan physique.
The OP said he was interested in learning “the real thing”. This eliminates:
Modern sport fencing
Kendo
SCA style bouts
Stage combat
And leaves only historical fencing (european/asian for the most part) or perhaps classical fencing.
Historical European Swordsmanship is a line of study that’s becoming increasingly popular, and one I personally have studied for a little over a year now. It’s not stage combat, it’s not what the SCA does (for the most part), nor is it modern sport fencing.
HEMA (Historical European Martial Arts) is the study of actual historical techniques (usually from historical treatises/Fechtbuchs) using a martially sound, historically based approach.
That typically means that groups who study this material will study not just the sword but the dagger, spear, staff, and grappling. Such a well rounded approach to martial arts is how the various historical warrior castes (knights, samurai, what have you) approached their martial arts, and it is a reason why it will still be useful to you even in a modern context where carrying around swords is no longer practical This is also a departure from many modern martial arts which compartmentalize their martial sports into subcategories (karate vs judo vs kendo, etc).
Try looking for an ARMA group near you. They have study groups all around the world. swordforum.com has a section for historical swordsmanship (both European and Asian) Definitely stop there because ARMA is certainly not the only group around there are hundreds and many of the more active/reputable ones post there. Be ware of live action role-players and the SCA or similar groups who will sometimes say that they study historical techniques, but are really just playing at a modern sport.
Note, there are many SCA members who ALSO study historical swordsmanship on the side. You might want to try the SCA just to meet these people, and also to have fun, they are a great bunch.
Having taken what I learned of Kendo (a year or so) into a silly boffer sword context, I can tell you it was extraordinarily helpful- as long as the other fella had one two-handed sword. I come off as a novice if he’s got anything else. You may find that what you’re practicing against is at least as important as what you’re practicing with.
Actually it means that the best way to learn how to swordfight is to study a couple of current different disciplines. That way the weak areas of one group can be bolstered by strong areas of another.
Don’t you mean that you study historical techniques as interpreted by your group from historical treatises/Fechtbuchs. I have a few of these myself, not originals of course but current prinitngs and interpretations of them, and they are not exactly step-by-step kind of instructions. I have listened to people who have studied the same treatise for years discuss sections and have fairly divergent ideas of what they show.
While I agree SCA does not, as a whole, do “Historic” fighting. I didn’t claim that it was studying “Historic” forms. One thing it does let you do though is get some experience using force when sparring.
The link I posted to St. Martins Academy is run by Bob Charron. I think many people in WMA who know of him will probably agree that he is on of the leading experts in the Italian school (a la Fiore). He is one of the best sword fighters I have ever seen. When I saw him at the WMAW ( http://www.wmaw.us/ ) in 2000 I think it was. He participated in the rebated steel tourney and commented that even though he was mostly using Fiore techniques he found himself slipping into SCA techniques. So I’m not sure you can completely write off our little stick fighting clubs techniques as useless.
I remember reading up on a sword-fighting academy a few years ago (could’ve been ARMA, I don’t know.) They had online videos, and what impressed me the most was how fast real sword-fighting is. Stage fighting requires slow, broad, stylized strokes, so the viewer can actually see what’s happening. The real stuff was fast, with little wasted movement.
I would agree, but only if by other disciplines you mean other historical disciplines, not modern sport.
No one is claiming a direct lineage back to medieval/renaissance fechtmeisters, and even if anyone was, I doubt the intervening centuries would have left the art untouched.
You’re right, what we have are interpretations of what the masters of old wrote down on paper. But we have a lot to work with and the basics are pretty well grounded and agreed upon by a large, competent community. There are still many disagreements, heated debates and a LOT that we do not know. I find this an appealing part of HEMA. Unlike in many other martial arts where your teacher says “do it this way, there is no other way” in HEMA you get a much more scientific instruction: “This is the way I do it and these are the reasons why, and here are the master’s own words which you can read yourself, see if you agree with me, or can come up with a better interpretation.”
So do most HEMA groups. It varies from group to group so I’ll tell you what we do in mine:
We use wasters (wooden swords) for pell work, light sparring, solo & partnered drills, steel blunts for the same, historically accurate replicas for test cutting and solo work, and finally padded weapons or modified shinais for full speed, full contact sparring. These paddeds have realistic weight, dimensions, size, and as realistic handling as we can squeeze in. They are a far cry from anything the SCA uses, or from modern sport fencing. Still they are there to teach us to use proper force when applying technique and to allow us to practice proper footwork and some technique at full speed.
I’ve heard of Mr Charron and I would agree that the man knows his stuff. So I won’t comment on what he had to say.
I will say however, that the stick play the SCA uses has little to do with actually using a sword as it was meant to be used. The people who wrote these treatises and fechbuchs weren’t trying to score points, or using complex rules. They devised ways of using these tools in an efficient and useful way to their final purpose: to kill. That is a whole different world from play fighting.
Well, here is another guy warning everyone about how bad the SCA is.
While there are individuals with strong sport fencing and/or eastern martial arts backgrounds who know how to fence, more or less, there is no quality control whatsoever within the SCA. Anyone can be a self-proclaimed expert and teach fencing. As long as you succeed according to the SCA’s artificial set of rules and you have fun, that is absolutely fine with me. But if you come in with little knowledge, it is easy to be led astray and ultimately bullshitted.
The problem arises when people with neither historical linguistic nor real fencing skills claim any kind of authenticity. This pejorates the entire activity.
I will spare you all my vitriol in re: the HEMA community at large. I have organized and run two WMAW workshops, and I know many of these people personally.
That said, I have worked with Bob Charron a few times over the years. Though I disagree with many aspects of his teaching and cannot yet comment on his upcoming book, I think he is genuinely knowledgeable about Fiore and very passionate for his students to succeed. Suffice to say, this is unusual.
If at all possible, go to ISMAC 2007 in Detroit. It is an unusually broad and qualified group of instructors in a variety of combat arts. You can talk to Maestro Paul McDonald from Edinburgh about your claymore.
isn’t that a danger in life itself? is there a certified guarantee that no other fencing school of thought is going to bullshit you? Is it only SCA?
Also, artificial rules? What does that mean?
Look, I never said that the SCA is the be-all end-all of fencing or combat, but, there is a great deal to learn and one has to start somewhere. The OP asked about learning to fence and several posters offered up several alternatives to look into, one of them the SCA. The odds are that a local SCA chapter exists nearer than a HEMA or ARMA or some Kendo school. Maybe not, maybe the OP want to learn Nothern Italian left-handed Schlaager as taught in 1583 on alternate Wednesdays and nothing else will do. But I doubt it.
I just get tired that every sword fighting thread brings the same guys who say the same thing about the same groups. It’s only a hobby, we don’t need a childish argument about why tetherball is better than kickball.
I’m no expert. But in my experience (which consists of some fencing lessons at Snootypequa Summer Camp, playing “swords” as a kid and watching the History channel), knowing the basics of how to parry, thrust and lunge with a sword is about all you need 90% of the time in this day and age. Unless the guy has a gun of course.
I’ll agree with DeadlyAccurate though. I was watching a show on samurai and they had some guys practicing with some katanas and holy shit they were fast. Like you wouldn’t have time to figure out where the fuck your head went off to.
All we said is that what the SCA does is not historical fencing and that if that’s what the OP is looking for then the SCA might not be the best place to go. Jeebus I even pointed out that what the SCA does is a fun sport and there they might be a gateway to real historical swordplay.
What exactly did I do to offend your sensibilities?
All the SCA bickering aside , fencing is fun. There are at least seven fencing clubs in Wisconsin. Most of the schools I’ve talked to are more than happy to give a free lesson or two, so you might want to check for that. One might suspect that using those feather-light swords would be easy, but I’ve yet to leave a session without being sore and sweaty. Sure, you won’t be able to do much serious damage to a bad guy with a foil, but you get your techniques down and your muscles built up and your reflexes honed… I wouldn’t want to face a real fencer even if they were armed with only a stick.
Sure, it’s not real fighting any more than Kendo or Kempo or Ju Jitsu, but like them it’s based on real fighting styles of a certain period and location.
And it’s scary-fast.
Kinthalis, no slam intended. I noticed that I never mentioned what my original link was for, so I piggybacked on your post…
This is also a departure from many modern martial arts which compartmentalize their martial sports into subcategories (karate vs judo vs kendo, etc).
, fencing is fun. There are at least