Fencing Swords

Hello chaps,

 I am not sure if you guys will be able to help me with this but, my mom frequents this site and you guys seem pretty smart and good at this kind of stuff.

I am writing because I am portraying Inigo Montoya in my High Schools production of The Princess Bride and I am lost on finding a sword that has a decorative enough hand gaurd to justify Wesley's line that he has "Never seen it's equal" but is made sturdy enough to actually be fenced with.  The problem that I have been encountering is that most "decorative swords" are for display only, and the hand guards of most "Theatrical fencing swords" are too plain to pass as Inigo's sword.  I have looked into buying the pieces seperately but I haven't found many good sites about that and I am nervous that I might buy pieces that won't fit together.

If anyone has any information on possibilities, I would greatly appreaciate it.  What I am looking for specifically is a sword with a thin "foil" fencing blade.  Sabers won't work because they are too heavy to wield in one hand (especially left handed).  As for the hand guard, anything that is really ornate that doesn't cost TOO much.  I have about a $200 budget for the kit and caboodle.  

Welp, thanks for you time!

There are several basket-handle rapiers on this page. Don’t know if they’re too heavy for you to use, but they’re mostly under $200.00.

Page down a bit on that link for the real basket-handles.

How about this one?

They have a couple different fencing swords, if you look in the links on the left. I’ve never used the site, so I can’t vouch for it.

Contact your local branch of the Society for Creative Anachronism (SCA). Not only are they likely to have people who have fencing swords, they’re also likely to be able to advise you on how to use them. I have two fencing swords myself, an epee and a schlager, and a dagger. The schlager has a rather fancy hilt. You should be able to find and contact your local branch from the link I gave you.

Come to think of it, I’ve got to order a new pair of fencing gloves and get back into practice!

CJ
Occaisional fencer, Kingdom of Aethelmearc

darn. i get a regular catalog of accurate reproductions of medieval weapons, clothing and accessories, but it’s at home and i can’t quite recall the exact title. Renaissance Reproductions or something like that. the weapons are touted as use-worthy. i’ll try and dig it up later tonight. however, the prices there might be getting outside your range limit.

in the meantime, this site seems to be targeting the theater-level need directly. lots of nice swept-hilt rapiers and foils, with the advantage (to your cast members) that they all seem to be blunt-tipped. some even appear to come with scabbards. prices tend to start at $139, though, so they may eat up the majority of your costume budget.

good luck with the search.

If you’re looking for a piece that won’t be damaged by inaccurate stage fighting, then make sure the piece specifically made for stage combat (It’ll be a bit heavier than an actual weapon and probably not very well balanced).

Here’s something I would look into http://www.renstore.com/cgi-bin/Renstore.storefront/4006b21d001ce176273f40d40a730644/Product/View/CAS&2D1092GT

But look around.

I’m guessing you’re not very interested in learning historical renaissance swordsmanship, in which caes I would ask the SCA for some advice. If you ARE interested in renaissance swordsmanship and you want to imbue your performance with some historical veracity, pick up a book on the subject.

http://www.thehaca.com/book/renbook.htm John Clement’s book is highly recommended. At the very least you can use some historically accurate guards, and you might learn a thing or two abotu historical fencing to boot :wink:

Obviously you don’t want an actual rapier, but if in the future you become interested, make sure the smithy is reputable (try western medieval and renaissance martial arts groups and forum boards online for links to trustworthy smiths).

Try ebay. I found a lot of hits by typing in “Fencing Swords”

Pardon my asking, but does the guard really need to be all that fancy? Wesley isn’t saying he’s never seen its equal because it looks pretty. As I recall, doesn’t he pick it up and feel the balance on it? The feel of a sword ought to be more important than the look.

Not, of course, that your audience will be feeling the sword themselves, but it should look like Wesly is appreciating the feel. This will depend to some degree on how good a physical actor the fellow playing Wesley is.

Long-time fencer weighing in here, although I should emphasize that I don’t know squat about stage combat or “historical” fencing. That said, I do have a few thoughts. First of all, you probably don’t want a foil blade (it will look wimpy and insubtantial) or a “schlager” blade (heavy and dangerous, if memory serves) in your stage weapon. I’d recommend an epee blade, or something called an “extra-wide epee” blade. It will look like a real weapon, but not be prohibitively dangerous.
Second, if possible, try to check out what you’re going to buy in person. What looks great on a website may in fact be a total piece of garbage, and any weapon (even a theatrical one) should be thought of like a hand tool: you can buy one good one, and have it last a lifetime, or buy a cheap one and replace it over and over again.
Finally, and most importantly, PLEASE tell me that you have a qualified fight choreographer. By which I mean someone who has the appropriate training and experience to design a fight that is not only exciting, convincing, and dramatic, but is also safe. No amount of experience in the SCA, historical fencing, modern sport fencing, or the like is an appropriate substitute. Here is an interesting and enlightening article (I disagree with lots of other stuff on that website, but this article is spot on).

Yes, you do!

 As for swords, you want something with either a schlagger or practice rapier (DelTin, Zamarano, or Hanwei) blade on them. Swords made for SCA or other western martial arts practice are suitable. 

 Many of the swords featured in other links are just for show and would not hold up to the rigors of stage combat. I have had personal experience with a director who insisted on using "wall hanger" style swords in stage combat. They break. Even the "battle ready" ones advertised by some. Also may wall hangers are sharp, you want to stay away from sharpend swods for stage work as you increase the very real possability of hurting someone beyond acceptable levels.

Epees and other modern fencing weapons are also unsuitable as they do not show up well on stage (you can’t see a foil past the third row).

Good links for these type of weapons:

http://www.triplette.com/Theatrical%20Fencing/Default.htm

Probably the cheapest basic weapons, I recommend R6 or R9 with a schlaeger blade

http://www.darkwoodarmory.com/

Excellent weapons, DelTin blades. Perhaps a little slow on delivery.

www.alcheminc.com

another good site for weapons.

Hope this helps.

Sweetums

My advice,

Since it’s a stage play, just go down to your local craft store and pick up some wire and a bunch of plastic beads and jewels. Make a rudimentary cage with this and glue/tape it to the guard of your sword. Spray with some gold paint on the handle, and dangle a few little glass prisms from the pommel to catch the light and add sparkles.

The audience is going to be 30 feet away, in the dark, and is never going to hold the sword. All they need to notice is that it shines and glitters more than the other swords.

But if you want a really cool one, go here:
http://www.museumreplicas.com/

I’ll agree with Chronos here in that Wesley was talking about the feel of the weapon, rather than the look of it. Mayhaps you can bring that aspect of the act to the fore.

Sweetums also provides excellent links.

And as Gargoyle says, if it really is just for stage fighting, and only this play, then gluing stuff on it, etc is just fine.

Finally Montresor is right, I hope you have a good choreographer. I suggested a little historical fencing study in case there was none :wink:

Oh and the SCA DOES NOT teach historicla martial arts :slight_smile:

Well, yea, but the kickass, elaborate hilt helps.

Gee, that must mean I am wasting my time studying the works of Marozzo and Saviolio, as well as teaching them to other SCAdians.

:rolleyes:

  Really Kinthalis, I was providing the op with links to sellers, insults between schools are for the pit.

Eh, I meant no insult, simply stating the facts as I knew them.

And unless things have changed recently the vast majority of SCAdians still do not practice historical fencing.

That you teach renaissance fencing is admirable. But looking at the matches I have seen, and some videos on the net from SCA groups I can tell you that what I have seen is not fencing.

Still I’m glad that is changing (on another thread someone mentioned that some SCA people were studying historical martial arts on their won) which I think is great and compells me to hurry up and join my local group already (It’s hard finding sparring partners).
Again, no offense intended.

I am a trained actor with multiple certifications in stage combat using various weapons, and extensive experience both in fighting in and choreographing these types of scenes. I’ll second a lot of the advice received here.

First, what Montresor said about the blade. You want an epee, or the wider epee, which may be called that in the catalog, or alternatively a “musketeer” blade. Almost all of the swords I have at home are musketeers. They show up better on stage, they’re not substantially heavier than the more slender epee, and they stand up to abuse better than foils or flat saber-style blades (which break and/or nick easily).

Also what Montresor said about the choreographer. It is amazingly easy to hurt yourself, badly, if you’re doing stage combat without knowing what you’re doing. I know people who have broken bones by messing up moves or by losing their distance or making other errors. I personally knocked both myself and my partner unconscious once when I misjudged a head butt: my own fault, despite my years of experience. An amateur takes even a greater risk. If you don’t actually have a choreographer, I beg you to find one, and spend four weeks, two hours a day, seven days a week, minimum, working on the fight. Don’t just try to replicate what they did in the movie; some of it is easy, but some of it is hard, and won’t read on stage anyway. In addition, you need to have a fight call before every single performance where you run through the choreography to reinforce it in your mind: first at half speed, then again at “real” speed (which, in point of fact, is between two thirds and three quarters of what actual combat would be).

Also what GargoyleWB said about how far away the audience will be. Remember, what the weapon looks like to you in your hand, up close, has almost nothing to do with what it looks like to somebody sitting a dozen yards off. You can get away with a lot here, and it might actually be better to have an elegant but clean look to the sword, for the audience’s perspective. Personally, I thought the hilt in the movie was kind of ugly, all junky and crusty and stuff; if you put something like that on stage, it would look cheap and plastic to somebody in the audience. Better to have a polished silver basket hilt with a few swoops and swept quillons or whatever. It’ll look better. Trust me. And most importantly, you won’t have to worry about stuff falling off it during the fight and getting underfoot.

However, what some people have suggested about calling the SCA, I’m not sure that’s a good idea. The emphasis on those weapons is different from the emphasis on a stage implement. A really nice dress sword, for example, may not be appropriate for actual combat; it may fall apart after a couple of whacks, and the owner may not even want it to get scuffed up. There’s a difference between something that’s made to look nice hanging on your belt and something that’ll stand up to being banged around a few thousand times. Better to go straight to the specialized source and avoid complications.

In any event, Rule One = Safety. Everything else is so far down the priority list that there aren’t any other rules until six or seven. :wink:

Obviously, I take this stuff pretty seriously and will be happy to address any other questions you or anyone else might have.

Hey, no blood no foul.

 Perhaps I have been a bit oversensitive anyway. So I also appologize.

Truth is, your opinion can be justified to some degree. In the past the vast majority of SCA fencing has been “modern fencing in funny cloths.” Many of the early SCA fencers were people with modern sport experience who used dressed up foils and epees.

  This is changing. With the study of the period manuals such as the ones I have mentioned, and the rise of other western martial arts schools like ARMA and Tattersall, SCA fencers have begun to train and learn in a period manner. There are students in the SCA and the rest of the Western Martial Arts comunity that have never set foot in a modern fencing school. There is also more crossover between the various schools in the WMA comunity, resources are being gathered and shared.

 The modern fencers are still there, but even they have begun to adopt more period techniques. "Wire Wienies" are becoming an endangered species. In their place are people who are sincerly interested in becoming scholars of the blade.

 All and all, SCA, ARMA, Tattersall, and others make this a great time to be interested in playing with swords.

Interesting, you wouldn’t happen to be located anywhere near NJ? Sounds like your particular group could be a lot of fun to join.

Uhmm, sweetums, you’re not that librarian are you? The one from the Debatable Lands in whose honor parties involving Irishmen, swords, and drinking are thrown? If not, I’m now certain you know him.

Ah, the joys of being a lapsed fencer – I don’t have to worry about getting my butt kicked; I have to worry about getting my body stabbed! :smiley:

CJ

That would be me. 

:smiley:

Kinthalis: alas no. I play in the Pittsburgh area mostly. I have been to one or two tourneys in the NJ area, but not for a while now.