If God existed outside of the boundries of reality as you can perceive and sense it, then you would have absolutely no knowlege of him whatsoever. How can you perceive something which can not be perceived?
You can’t. Who said you could?
I think START was well intentioned, and provided a 7 year old boy with a useful life lesson - throughout your life there will be people who think you will be better off if you think like they do.
The most beneficial response is best summed up by Randy Quaid regarding the dog Snots in Christmas Vacation: “He’s got a bit of Mississippi Leghound in him Clark. A word of advice: once he lays into you, it’s best just to let him finish.” In other words, smile benignly, try to remember that they feel like they are being kind, and move on with reality.
This is how I handled well-meaning Christians when I was 11 and my father passed away. The only times it doesn’t work too well is when they show up at your front door with literature.
Hi everyone, I’m brand new, and I’m probably crazy for starting with this thread, but here goes:
I don’t think Start realized they weren’t Christian. It’s usually not a topic that comes up in casual conversation, and with such a large Christian majority in the US, most of us tend to assume everyone is. I’m a non-Christian and I’m frequently guilty of making that assumption. I agree he shouldn’t have interfered, but it was an innocent mistake.
I am bothered by his attitude toward the incident, though. When the mother explained her beliefs, I think the appropriate response would have been, “Oops, sorry, my bad!”, not, "She’s wrong not to see it my way(i.e. there’s nothing wrong with telling a little kid there’s a heaven) and “I didn’t cause any harm!”
Start, I don’t think you were trying to convert him, because it’s unlikely you were aware that he wasn’t already Christian. However, now that you are aware, you can’t really claim that what you said did no harm, after all, you yourself said that what you said to him could be a comfort for the next 80 to 90 years. The only way that would be a comfort is if he believes, from this moment on, that what you said is the truth-that God and heaven exists.
Supposing he does, that would mean that you converted him, intentionally or not. To a mother who doesn’t want her child converted, that is, in fact, doing harm.
Now, to all those people who can’t understand why even atheists should have a problem with small children believing in heaven, I think I can answer that. What children are indoctrinated with at a very young age is almost impossible to expunge later. From most atheists’ viewpoint, when they are really young is the only time you could get them to truly believe, as George Carlin has said, that there’s an invisble man in the sky, who watches everything you do, etc. etc. Most atheists wish to have their children reach an age where they can employ reason before they form their beliefs.
I personally think that atheists would be better off making their children aware from the time they can talk that most people have this certain belief, and that they don’t agree with it, rather than allowing a situation to arise where some well meaning person accidentally throws them for a loop. I’m not saying that they should have to, I’m just saying it would be more practical.
There was an apology made but probably not how any Dopers would expect and definitely not what I expected…
*Mrs. Johnson: Hey START I hope you don’t think I was snapping at you the other day, I have been so stressed out.
START: No, not at all. I didn’t want you to think I was trying to like convert your son or whatever.
Mrs. Johnson: I know that, it’s just been stressful.
START: Stressed or not, don’t let it happen again you hell bound athiest. Now bring your son out here so I can give him some Bible tracts, maybe then atleast he could escape the eternal punishment of Hell that will almost certainly be your fate.
Mrs. Johnson: Yes sir, right away sir.*
Well, actually the last part isn’t true (if you didn’t already know) but the first part is pretty much word for word the short conversation we had.
I don’t see it as a green light to go telling her son about Heaven again but at least she realizes that I was only trying to help. I’m happy 
.
I just laughed so hard I woke up my roommate!
Start, man, you are alright!
(going to bed now still giggling)
I’m glad and that’s actually pretty much how I expected it to go.
As a concept, I suppose I do. Here in Jebbushistan, fundie parents aren’t “forced” to do anything. The state gives out these things called “vouchers” so that fundie parents can send their kids to Christian madrasas on the public’s (my) dime.
They actually do that in Florida? That’s great! I wasn’t aware that there was a full fledged voucher system working anywhere in the U.S.
I don’t know, this seems like a difficult situation to be honest. START, what you did (IMO) was put a woman who was already in an emotional rollercoaster into a potentially bad position with her son.
I don’t know her or the situation that well, but to speculate I’m thinking that this woman was at this particular time (and possibly not in general) very sensitive about religion.
So, while you meant well, I think ultimately you might have done a little more harm then good-especially depending on the mother. The mother might be of the opinion that the after life is a lie, as is heaven and that you-out of your wish to comfort the child-have now put her in the position to upset her child a great deal. The mother could look at it, and probably does, as though you’ve just reinforced something the child wants to believe (similar to Santa Claus) and that in order to tell the child the truth it will be a lot more difficult because unlike Santa Claus, this perceived untruth is attached to a severally emotional incident. Not everyone thinks that accepting something that’s untrue is a comfort, either.
I don’t know, when I was a Christian I’d have probably done the same thing. I don’t think you were actually trying to convert the child, I think you were just trying to comfort the child. I don’t think that’s a bad thing, however I don’t see why you’d pit the mother over it.
Well I assumed he pitted the mom cause he’s a young guy and many peoples’ immediate reaction to an admonishment is anger. If you look a few posts up (STARt’s #165?) you’ll see it wasn’t that big a deal- just a stressful moment for everyone.
I agree with this post entirely, and thought it was worth repeating, as it seems to have gotten somewhat lost in the shuffle.
It’s very much one of those “it’s the thought that counts” situations where you’re best off not analyzing the message.
Hindsight is 20/20. Current knowledge colors past perceptions. It’s a poisoned well. I don’t think he can tell us what he was thinking at that moment, because, at that moment, what he was thinking probably wasn’t considered very important. He’s got a big blank space that can get written over to make a coherent history for himself. It’s not a question of honesty. He could tell us what he remembers thinking and be entirely honest… it would be the truth, it just wouldn’t necessarily be accurate. Which is probably more philosophical a reply than you wanted.
And CarnalK has already pointed out the basis for my perception that there’s something not quite right about the situation.
Oh, come on, guys.
Card- carrying atheist (okay, deist, but at any rate someone who generally finds unsolicited witnessing extremely objectionable) here, and I don’t think START deserves any criticism.
The “good memories crap” line was a bit unpleasant, but as long as he didn’t say that to her or the kid, what can you fault him for?
If START did anything wrong, it was pitting the mother. She simply asked you not to discuss your beliefs with her children- her right as a parent. Unless she was unpleasant about it, quit whining.
I also think that START deserves kudos for taking the time and patience with a grieving seven year old-a lot of the sixteen year old guys I went to school with would have mumbled something and gotten the hell out of their.
So basically, he made a mistake, but his heart was in the right place, and it looks like it all worked out. Maybe the mods should close this thread now?