catsix, do you agree that every teacher should be made to carry a weapon? Yes? No? Why?
Also, can I please have a cite that **all **teachers in the Phillipines, Peru and Israel carry a weapon?
Really? How about because Australia and Great Britain are somewhat closer socially, economically and politically to the USA than Peru and Israel are?
Anyway, I probably should have said “cite” to the initial claim, particularly that
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Israel, Peru and Phillipines routintely arm their teachers as a matter of stipulated policy
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Arming teachers in these nations has contributed directly to a reduction in spree-shootings within schools.
I’m really, really sorry I opened this can of worms, now. I can say my mother is a teacher (retired), pre-first and first, and I was a TA for a while. I know exactly what it feels like to have to worry about all those little lives in your hands.
I can also say that it might be a good idea to have maybe one or two teachers who are armed at a school. Sort of the equivalent of the fire marshal, only, well, with appropriate and actual training and security. Might. Maybe something worth considering. Especially if it’s a remote kind of school. I know that it wouldn’t have helped in this instance, but it’s something I’ve thought about… I went to school within escapee distance of Sing-Sing. Every so often, we had lockdowns.
We can’t get rid of the guns in America. For one, it’s physically impossible, for two it’s unconstitutional. For three, they’re still damn handy. That much should be accepted as fact. The next step after accepting that is to try to figure out what we can do, as reasonable, moral human beings, to protect those who we are in charge of.
Yeah, if I had the chance, I would have gone after that waste of life. I’m pretty sure that even if he did shoot me, I’d have a good chance of getting my hands on his gun long enough for someone to take him down.
And yeah, I’m pretty sure I’d have done it. Not a hundred percent sure, but it’s something I’ve though of often enough. Especially since September 11th. Wondered if I had the courage to go after that cockpit door. I’d like to think I would have. Cause the alternative isn’t worth speaking about. Five dead, now.
Any thoughts, folks? I’m trying to be honest here.
And most importantly, was it becasue of school shootings that they armed the teachers (if they actually did it)? Couldn’t have a little something like terrorism and guerrillas to blame instead?
All this talk about arming teachers is so ridiculously reactionary, it’s making my head hurt.
While we’re at it, why don’t we issue bullet-proof jackets to all the kids, too? Think of all the lives we might save!
Did I say all teachers?
I wonder how many of the posters who claim they would have “taken the attacker down” have actually been in that situation themselves (outside their wank fantasies)…?
Arm teachers and, as has been pointed out, anyone contemplating this sort of outrage would disarm/shoot the teacher the minute they walk into the room. Which instantly raises the stakes as the attacker now has very little to loose (bearing in mind that not all school-hostage takers have already planned to end it with murder).
Cite? Name one. I can’t think of any.
I hate saying this, but, cite?
I looked and only found Israeli teachers being armed…and it isn’t as simple as you paint it. There are parent & teacher volunteers that go through training and they patrol the schools. It is not just “every teacher carries a gun” but a few select people that do what security guards would do, plus a few teachers that receive regular training. And this is all second hand - I haven’t found anything official on the topic, but there sure are lots of gun rights advocates that tell about the glories of Israel…again, no cites there, just what they say.
For the Phillipines I just found references to very strict gun laws regarding concealed carry. And Peru? I didn’t find dink. So, please, enlighten us.
I might be for a select few being able to carry - but they would have to have regular training, etc. But a blanket “Want to teach? gotta carry!” is just bullshit. The schools in the USA are seriously under-funded, extra-curricular activities are cut left and right, and, in my experience, anytime a new tax bill comes up to raise money for schools it gets squashed in favor of a tax bill to raise money for a damned sports arena or three (Denver, for example).
So where would the money come from? Where would the training come from? How would the teachers be regulated? (Or do you assume that all teachers are bastions of sanity and reason that would never pull the gun from their shoulder holster and blow a kid away in a moment of anger?)
And what about volunteer parents? Yeah! Anyone with a couple of kids and a gun could apply…oh wait, this guy had kids and a loving wife…scratch that.
You say that gun laws can’t protect the students, but more guns can. How? All someone would have to do to pull off another murder would be to give up the time needed for a hostage situation and just be determined to walk into a classroom, shoot the teacher (she’s got a gun! get her first!), then empty the clip into the remaining students, reload, rinse, repeat in the next classroom down the hall. With a few hundred dollars of body armor ordered over the Internet, I bet they could even get through a few of your armed teachers before the SWAT team arrived with the big guns. Oh wait! Let’s also order all teachers to wear body armor too! Heck, while we are at it, let’s make the students wear them as well.
I have a concealed carry permit here, so I’m not really an anti-gun kinda guy. But I recognize that you can’t prevent everything, that determined sickos are sometimes very good planners, and that real-world logistics need to be dealt with when looking for solutions. What you propose is fantasy, pure and simple.
-Tcat
See, now that’s insulting. Nobody fantasizes about getting into a shootout, and the old “gun=penis wank fantasy” canard is ridiculous. I will agree that on the Internet everybody is a hero, but there have been people who have done exactly that: taken a guy down before he killed a lot of people. There are a lot of people who would do so without thinking twice. For that reason I choose to either not comment or take them at their word rather than insult them.
There is that, so what are we left with? What are the root causes of these behaviors? Rather than treating the symptoms we would probably be better off treating the disease, wouldn’t you say?
Or why not treat both?
Because it’s a waste of resources? Because you would have people thinking that the gains came from treating the symptoms, and then would hare down the wrong path for the sake of their ideology?
No one fantasizes about being the brave movie hero? Really? What was Crafter_Man doing above? He stated as though it were absolute fact that, had he been there, no students would have died: “If I had been the teacher in that schoolhouse, I guarantee those girls would still be alive.” What is that, if not fantasy? There is some chance that if Crafter_Man had been there with his big guns, he might have stopped the shooting. Possibly. But certainly to pretend that you can “guarantee” something like that can only be characterized as fantasy. SWAT teams can’t make that guarantee, but some internet nerd can?
The fact that he’s clearly operating under macho fantasies rather than a reasonable assessment of the situation makes me wonder whether he has the remotest idea what he’s talking about when it comes to actual incidents. He might be great at target practice. But that doesn’t mean much. If he could evaluate the situation outside of his cowboy fantasies, I might be inclined to believe he might be worth something when it comes down to it. But his fantasies about playing the hero are so blatantly ridiculous that I’m guessing that, if he actually were there during something like this, he’d be useless if not worse. At very least, he’s foolhardy and overconfident - I can’t imagine those are two traits that help in a crisis situation.
Oh, and P.S.: The phrase “wank fantasy” was obviously not meant literally.
I didn’t actually say that, did I? At any rate, all we’ve done here is identify some confounding variables. It’s easily possible that, had the federal government acted thirty years ago to remove guns from the country, gun violence would have dropped even further. Pure speculation, of course - but you certainly haven’t come up with anything to contradict the rather obvious notion that more guns tends to lead to more gun violence.
I’m as bleeding heart as you get and am quite anti-gun(in my country, what you do in yours in your problem not mine).
Saying that if I was in the situation with a gun and knew what to do with it and had the opportunity I don’t think I’d have any problem taking the life of someone who was putting people at risk. Wouldn’t know for sure until I was actually in the situation but I know myself pretty well.
The access to guns issue isn’t really the point IMO in these situations. The UK had strict laws and they still had Dunblane which was carried out by a licensed gun holder. They also had a nut go to a school with a machete and try to take a few kids out. In that case a school teacher got in the way and took the blows rather than the kid.
It does seem to be more prevalent in the US but I see that as more of a societal thing in the sense that it’s more in some nuts mind that this is a possible way to do things as it’s happened before and they are aware of it. That’s why IMO these kinda things happen in groups. One instance sparks off another bastard.
Can’t really see a real solution unfortunately with turning the school system into a locked down police state which wouldn’t be good for the kids IMO as it would create a environment where they always felt at risk because all they see is armed guards around them.
FUBAR and very unfortunate.
10 Jan 2000 - Peoria, Arizona - hostage situation ends with no deaths or serious injuries
Incidents with no deaths or injuries do not gain the same national attention as those where students die, so it’s not suprising that you’ve not heard of any.
Just like it wasn’t meant literally the first 50,000 times I heard it. We get it. Guns are penis compensators, even for women. Us gun owners sit there with our dicks in our hands just waiting to blow somebody away. Whatever you say. Now, can you stop with the stupid joke already? Thank you.
(Sorry to interrupt this exchange on gun control.)
I tell you, what the heck kind of society produces people who want to kill kids? Guns we can solve, by arming or disarming everyone perhaps. But would nutters just kill kids with hammers then? It is a shame this guy is dead. I want to know what the heck was going on in his pointy head so we can learn to prevent it.
(We now return to our gun control debate already in progress.)
The problem I have with the " I would’ve saved those kids…" is assumption that this guy or any of these guys is going to walk in and let you shoot them. It ignores the real fact, that this guy and the others could lay in wait and blow a hole in the back of your head, while you’re taking a piss or writing on the blackboard or whatever.
This isn’t some John Wayne movie, where that bad guys wear bad and walk down middle of the street, announcing their intentions. These are people who shoot children. Do you really think, they’re going to walk into your classroom and say, “Draw…!”?
There’s a difference between saying that you would do all that you could to protect those kids given the chance and saying, “If I was there, with my gun…I would’ve taken that punk out…guaranteed”
I call bullshit and wank fantasy on those types of claims.