So your mental model of how Trump acts is him going around doing evil things all day, while Biden spends the day like Phil in Groundhog Day? My guess is that that they both spend their days meeting with subordinates, talking on the phone to journalists, watching TV stories about themselves, writing and giving speeches. I think my fellow Evangelical voters would be bored stiff and would learn little to nothing new.
That’s pretty much spot on.
My mental model of Trump does not include him doing any devotionals, or setting time aside for prayer or spiritual meditation. I think his days DO include him making nefarious plans to cheat and steal anything he can. (Everyone who has known him at all and almost everyone who has had to work directly with him have mentioned he is very transactional and does very little unless there is some upside for him.) The stuff about him holding meetings during orgies was mostly a joke (although I would not completely dismiss the idea—he does seem to prefer super attractive young women for close advisers).
Some have claimed he asked them to break laws and betray their own personal morals to accomplish his goals which were often disgusting and inhumane then offered presidential pardons for any who followed through and did what he required. He seems to be devoted to the most despicable people in our society and routinely denigrates his opponents even when their very lives were recently endangered. Knowing some ex-cons personally, his behavior is at least as odious as theirs is by my observations and the ‘behind the scenes’ accounts I have heard and read.
I am sure there are plenty of boring meetings, meaningless photo opportunities, and other ceremonial business. They hardly bother to brief him on security matters any longer because he gets bored doing the actual work of being the President of the United States; he also tends to dismiss the important parts and latch onto the parts that excite him. I am sure if you are one of those people who believe he is good and sincere and hard working – you would be disgusted by his manner of proceeding, his selfishness, and his complete lack of humanity or empathy for anyone else. Two to five days of observing him would be enough to change your mind if you are one of those people.
Conversely, I believe Biden is a boring, hard working, and sincere man who cares about everyone he meets. He cares about doing good for everyone, and implementing whatever policies we can afford that do the most good for the most people. He is an old guy and I am sure sometimes behind the scenes he is tired and grumpy – but seldom or never mean or insulting.
I do believe Biden is the boring executive you allude to in your reply. But that is significantly better than the Christian right gives him credit for being in my circle. They believe he has secret plans to lead the country into nefarious areas and replace Capitalism with at least Socialism, Communism if he can pull it off. There is also talk of him giving control over to the most extreme and …… um, foreign elements of the Democratic Party.
I am willing to go all in on the proposition that my informed views are FAR more accurate than the completely uninformed views of those Evangelicals I deal with directly. I will refrain from painting you with that brush, I have no idea how well informed you are (or are not), nor do I know what views you hold.
I was trying to telegraph my bona fides in Christendom by reciting portions of the Apostles Creed off the top of my head and mentioning what I assume the source of your user name is. I am familiar with my Bible sir, I know the Ten Commandments and the Creeds (well not the Athanasian Creed – but I know he had more to do with writing the Nicene Creed during the council of Nicaea and after his death they named the longer and more detailed creed after him). I know he is credited with coining: “For evil to prevail all that is required is for good men to do nothing (translations vary). I am very far from being a man of letters, but I am not completely ignorant either. And with my intellect, as limited as it may be – I wish for those whom I care about but no longer number myself as what we used to call Communicant, the gift of being able to see for themselves the character of the very men who would be their Administrative Leader.
I am not trying to insult believers of any description. In fact, I wish that believers could be better informed and more aware and well rounded to their own credit. Without including you puddleglum, as I said I know you not at all, the sincere Evangelical believers in my life prefer to get 100% of their national political news from either questionable sources – or from no news source at all. “What I overhear at church” or “I was on this Christian website and they said….” Is the source I hear quoted most often. I hope you are better informed than they are. I just assumed you would be because of where we are interacting right now.
Lastly, I do not get the Groundhog Day reference. I do not believe Biden is caught in a time loop, or that is he is hot for Andie McDowell (although I wouldn’t blame him if he was – assuming he never acted upon it!) I have given you a longer and more detailed answer than I had wanted. I hope this satisfies you, if you took offense, it was not intended and I can only apologize for there being a misunderstanding.
Your idea of Trump seems just as much as a caricature as the one you think evangelicals hold of Biden. Trump might shock people with his coarseness and narcissism but him sitting around coming up with nefarious plans to cheat and steal is a child’s view of how people they disagree with work. I have no doubt he is transactional in his dealings with people as all politicians are. Second hand tales from disaffected underlings should be taken with a grain of salt. The way Washington works is that every one involved in an administration takes the credit for successes and none of the blame. They know people eat up bad stories about Trump so they provide them.
Biden is like most politicians, vain, transactional, and coarse. What most evangelicals dislike about him is that he has an agenda that is different than ours. We are not electing a youth pastor or picking someone as a son in law, but someone to work in the government and try to get an agenda passed. Trump is committed to that agenda and Biden is committed to an opposing agenda.
Well, Trump has been committed to (or, at least, talks a great deal about) an agenda that whips up his base. My strong suspicion is that the only agenda item that Trump is actually committed to is “what benefits me, Donald J. Trump, personally?”
But, after this next Tuesday, win or lose in the election, what role does Trump’s base play in his actual, personal agenda going forward?
[quote=“puddleglum, post:41, topic:923867, full:true”]
So your mental model of how Trump acts is him going around doing evil things all day, while Biden spends the day like Phil in Groundhog Day? [/quote]
Among my mental models of Trump is that he’s a petty, self-centered man who does petty, self-centered things all day. That his bottom line question is “what about ME?” and that his thinking and actions nearly never go to other people, and to the extent that they do, they swing as quickly as possible back around to himself. (Remember, one of the early rumors out of this White House was that reports were more likely to be listened to and glanced at if his name was mentioned prominently and frequently.)
My mental model of most other people is that they care about other people at least a little. The lessons that were taught to me in church was that I was to try to care about other people a lot. My mental model of Biden (based on the way that people talk about him and the reports about his public persona for 40+ years) he seems to do that.
My models could be wrong - it could be that Trump is a truly selfless, generous person but has created a weird public persona of being exactly the opposite - and the “flies on the wall” would see his true, open-hearted nature. It could be that Biden is really a deeply greedy, selfish ass whose only concern is himself - and this has been a long con into making us think he was a decent, stand-up guy in an effort to … something?
I’m willing to be proven wrong.
Cash. Cold hard cash. His base will crawl over broken glass (not naked - they’re not that type of people) to hand him money. And win or lose, he’s going to provide avenues for them to hand it over. Which they will.
[edited to fix bad quoting]
Despite you insulting me as childish, I will engage you honestly and try to show you more respect than you have given me. I am not talking about something I imagine, I am reporting things people (Evangelicals all) have actually said to me as their true and actual view.
I am sorry if you feel hurt or that I am attacking Evangelicals, I am not. When I saw that you had replied I took a few moments to pull together some influences to demonstrate I am not having a knee jerk reaction, I am basing my views on what I can learn from others who are in a position to know better than I am, and by-the-way, in a position to know better than you are also, not just my own notions.
I can see you are unlikely to give these sources fair play. I can also see you are probably guilty of projecting your own willingness to jump to the easy conclusion onto me. You are mistaken.
Next point, you do not seem to grasp what first hand and second hand mean. Taking the word of those who are in the room and interact with Trump directly are first hand accounts. If I tried to recount them to you myself, that would be second hand accounts. I will not do that, I will connect you to the people who were there and if you cannot even be bothered to hear what they have to say about Trump, well then please forgive me if I doubt you are sincere. I do not say that to be offensive, this is not a personal attack. I say it because you are indicating you would prefer to believe your own preconceived notions rather than those who actually know and work with Trump directly. I hope that is not the case, I hope you view them with an open mind and try to learn the truth – not confirm your bias. Assuming you are not a visitor to the Oval Office, you are asking me to accept your world weary assumptions about how Washington works over reports from dozens of people who have been dealing with Trump directly and ALL have similar stories. If you think they are all made up and sold for profit you will forgive me if I lose a bit of respect for you.
Let me ask you what you are basing your views of Biden upon? Have you read accounts of his behaviors from close family members? Former staffers? Disgruntled constituents? Or is it based upon simply what you believe is “how the world works” in general? Upon your view of what wealthy or powerful people are like? Let’s take it further and ask specific questions; do you know Biden personally? Do you know anyone who know Biden personally? Do you have any first hand accounts from others who know Biden but not you? Do you know any US Senators, or anyone of comparable power, influence, or even any lower ranking politicians personally who are more significant than a local dog catcher? (I don’t know, that is a legitimate question).
Do you know Trump or anyone who knows him? Because if you don’t, and you are not willing to even consider the sources provided below – this debate is over (and you lost). If you are going to discuss the morality of our current Presidential Candidates, you had better have a better argument than “I believe, based solely upon my own opinion…”
You are entitled to your opinion and it can be as informed or as uninformed as you wish. I would never stoop to suggest how you should vote or upon what criteria you should make that decision. But if you are going to argue the character and ability of Trump and of Biden, I certainly hope you have more than your own opinion (or that of your minister) to go on.
I am going to go ahead and post my supporting links and views below. Feel free to ignore them or to take them with a grain of salt, but also feel free to consume them and give them a chance to provide you with insight. I hope you choose the later.
To be clear, I don’t want to argue with you at all. I wish we could have a reasoned and well supported, respectable discussion. I will discuss ideas and positions with you all day long, I am sure you have views I would benefit from learning. The reason I want to take ‘the Evangelicals’ (read this as family and friends I love and respect) and FORCE them to view these guys in person – is because their views of both men is based upon:
- FOX News pundits (not the news programs- the opinion shows at night)
- Right Wing Radio (some of the same people but a larger cast of characters)
- E-mails, texts, and comments from ‘End Times’ websites (hardly unbiased reporting)
and none of those sources are fact based – or for that matter fact tolerant. They routinely state things that are mutually exclusive with known facts. I hope you are not guilty of this also. So far you have not not stated anything like that, just made an indication you would reject accounts that you disagree with already.
I hope puddleglum that as a participant here on the SDMB you have a greater respect for facts than that. Than the people I am speaking about in a personal sense and any believers of any stripe who refuse to accept any facts they don’t like. (Talk about a childish view - “that does not fit my view so I dismiss that evidence” Ask Galileo about that; I thought the church had learned and grown beyond this.)
Lastly, I will admit that I tend to be overly optimistic and ideal. I do not see that as a bad thing, even if it doesn’t work out each time (or happens only one in ten), reaching for the best- for ideal - for better than we imagined doesn’t hurt and when it does work out it can be quite wonderful. That being said, I do try to make decisions based upon metrics because of how ignorant I was before I adopted that policy. I try in all matters to base my thoughts and actions upon facts and knowledge and wisdom; I also try to combat my own biases because I know they exist. Please don’t dismiss my slow thoughts as uninformed.
Okay one last thing. Without commenting upon the phrasing of the last sentence of your reply (Trump is COMMITTED??), you are saying Trump supports your agenda and Biden does not. So you are saying the ends justify the means?? It is okay to use unethical tactics and strategies to achieve noble goals? The fact that Biden is a man of faith and Trump is not, matters not at all? That as long as you get your judges and your laws passed character doesn’t matter?? Morality doesn’t matter?? Do you really endorse ‘your’ candidate being the ‘principalities we wrestle against’ in the epistles? Is that what Jesus would recommend? never mind, I withdraw that question.
(See more below momentarily.)
My argument with supporting links and references:
Well you are entitled to your opinion and it obviously contrasts very strongly with my own. At this point there would be nothing easier to do than dismissing your view and going on with my life. However I want to practice what I preach so here are some items I have assembled to support my view. I remain open to review significant amounts of information you may provide to support your assertions – that is only fair I believe.
I will start with the words of his ghostwriter from Trump’s 1987 book Trump; The Art of the Deal. Their relationship goes back to at least 1985. In 2016 on November 4th, Mr. Schwartz gave a speech at the Oxford Union, and then took questions. This video is almost an hour long, but the subject is specifically “Who is Donald Trump and is he still the same guy you knew back then?” I found it very powerful and convincing, please view it for yourself and draw your own conclusions.
Next the obvious voice of Michael Cohen, Mr. Trump’s long time attorney and fixer. He was convicted for lying for Trump and has a long and well documented history with President Trump. He admits he was mesmerized by Trump’s charisma and was devoted to helping and enabling him. Here are a few videos of him describing Trump in his own words. (I am well aware that he is known to lie and many may question the veracity of his statements since being separated from Trump. I found them to ring true and be compelling. I also found they matched behaviors of Trump which I observed myself from various sources.) I will start with his opening testimony before Congress, it was posted February 27th 2019.
And here is an interview Mr. Cohen did with George Stephanopoulos of ABC News.
Further, it seems well known that Trump made sexual comments about Mr. Cohen’s daughter when she was fifteen years old. He asked her to kiss him and told her that he would be dating her friends soon.
Her interview with Vanity Fair is also easily available.
The last video I will submit contains two of the men listed above as well as Anthony Scaramucci. These are all men who have known Mr. Trump personally for a long period of time, and all have a similar view of him from close personal experience and none of it is good. They all admit they have profited from their association with Mr. Trump and all decided it was not worth any amount of money to support him further. Here are all three of them discussing Trump about a month ago.
In addition to people he brought with him to government, there are dozens of long time governmental employees who worked closely with President Trump and now denounce him. Even military personal who believe speaking against the commander in chief is treasonous have taken the extraordinary step of endorsing Biden or openly criticizing Trump. I will not name them at this time, but they are in my back pocket if this discussion persists. I will only mention John Bolton briefly – his statements are readily available as is his book. I know he has questionable reliability, but he is not totally wrong by any means. We may as well list Bob Woodward’s book Rage here also; it caused us to hear audio of President Trump and his son-in-law saying things I find deeply offensive in their own voice with their own words. Please feel free to look those up and hear what they reveal. If those things are unimportant to you as long as you get the agenda you want – well you and I disagree about more than politics. I would say you do not understand Christianity at a fundamental level.
It seems prudent to mention his niece, Mary Trump (whom he cheated out of money); a well qualified mental health expert wrote a whole book about him and has given endless interviews about him. I will admit she has reason to resent him and her motives may be personal more than would be ideal. But read her book; hear her words, judge for yourself if she is telling the truth about his personality, his limitations, and his pathologies. I am honest enough to admit she likely has an axe to grind – but that does not mean her assertions are incorrect. In fact, they ring very true to me; I believe it is possible you may believe them also if you listen to what she says. Here are some interviews she gave about the book.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jmdxeZrue_g (very balanced report)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rp_Ew98D4OM (ABC News interview)
And the recordings she made while researching and writing the book.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hhnv4k1GfCA (Donald Trump’s sister bashing him)
You may also want to read the books themselves, even if you just want to refute them. You cannot speak against them unless you know what they say. Christians are somewhat famous for protesting movies they have never seen, and books they have never read. It is a horrible example of hypocrisy, and I am going to believe you are above that my friend.
I will mention, without linking to their words at this time, men and women who resigned from serving in Trump’s White House. They are well known to disparage President Trump for the level of work, policies, and misplaced views. We can visit their words later if that level is required, for now I will simply mention their names:
Elisabeth Neumann; former Homeland Security Employee and devout Christian
Olivia Troye; long time Republican who also worked in Homeland Security for the White House in Donald Trump’s administration, also served in the Coronavirus Task Force.
Miles Taylor; Security expert who wrote a whole book about how unqualified Trump is to serve as President of the United States, and given several scathing interviews recently.
The people who spend the most time with Trump, the people who know him best and longest seem to think he is a horrible and unqualified individual who is a conman from start to finish.
So, my views are not based upon my own views, on solely what my biases might indicate. Quite the contrary, I have been a registered Republican for more than twenty years and still describe myself as a conservative (old school conservative- but conservative none the less). In today’s political environment I would probably better be described as moderate, but I am a long way from being a Democratic or liberal wonk. I am not ideologically motivated, but if I was it would be mostly on the conservative side of matters.
In addition, I attended a Bible College in my young adult years and many of my classmates remain my closest friends. We have all evolved to some degree, but remain connected and respectful of each other’s views. I have served in many churches both in administration and more hands on ministries like teaching Sunday School and conducting Bible studies. Alas, my music skills are quite limited so I never served in any musical ministry. However, I was asked by my Pastor in one church to learn to play the bass guitar part for a few songs so I could travel with his revival ministry because my character and my testimony more than made up for my lack of musical ability. I have gone on, and even lead foreign ministry trips. I have worked in Christian hunger ministries, and many of my closest friends (outside of college classmates are retired pastors.
It is obvious you took offense to my characterization of certain Trump supporters as “Evangelicals”. I can see why, it was carelessly phrased. But it was not used as a pejorative; it was made to distinguish between more Orthodox, Liturgical denominations and more Charismatic movements which emphasize glossolalia and other spiritual gifts over creeds and rituals. I am well versed in both styles of worship and theology and doctrinal differences as well. I believe both ‘camps’ have strengths and blind spots and the (not Roman Catholic – but Universal) Catholic Church- the earthly embodiment of Christ’s work on the cross, is more complete and functional when both perspectives are observed. (At this point I am going to again recommend Franky Schaffer’s book CRAZY FOR GOD. And so you know, I have read most of what his late father wrote also.) I have been part of many heterodox services where basically uneducated preachers with a good deal of enthusiasm and zeal have spoken in complete ignorance – and seen orthodox churches with very well documented systematic theology who were not the most giving and caring people in existence. I am only giving you this background because I want you to understand that I am not saying what I am saying; I have not drawn my conclusions because of my own views or my personal convictions, or my biases. I have these views, and I say these things because they have been credibly demonstrated to me in a very objective manner.
I wish Trump was a better man, I wish I respected him. Actually, I wish the Party had never, ever nominated him in the first place. I would have loved to stay in my comfortable right leaning, moderately family values leaning existence. But my own morality, my desire to do what is right despite opposition has driven me to oppose Trump because I can see he is evil and dangerous. Also the ignorance and stubborn insistence of several good Christians to ignore facts and science is motivating me.
There would be nothing easier than ignoring your views. Many in this thread and beyond have said it is a wasted effort to try to teach any Trump supporter the truth. I don’t see it that way, I respect you enough to show you why I believe what I believe, and I hope it opens your eyes. But if we end up agreeing or disagreeing at the end of this debate, I hope you do not later regret supporting Trump. But mostly I hope you are happy and healthy and doing well in this America we share. I hope you take the time to read and listen to some of the information I laid out in this post. I remain open to any sources you may want to provide after you have viewed the sources I provided.
The problem, Temporary_Name, is that for the average person in your target group of the thought experiment, the everyday behavior of the two men would likely be hard to translate into “oh, dear, Trump is the opposite of my values and Biden is closer”. To borrow a phrase from a much more grievous scenario, there is the effect of the banality of evil: to the untrained observer it all will feel like following a rocket engineer or a patent lawyer all day. They will see and hear a bunch of incomprehensible conversations about things they don’t know crap about with people they never heard of, and filter it through their preconceptions.
Even back in the 2016 race, I often commented to people wondering how come the Trump “base” were rallying for someone so unlike them, that to them, the figure of the “asshole with authority” is not only familiar, but in their experience it’s something you just deal with and make the best of, not that you take ofense to and try to change or replace.
And of course, to the Evangelical base, there is always the “instrument of God” to fall back upon. Which, yes, is the end justifying the means – because the Bible is chock-full of God’s end justifying man’s means. Smash babies on rocks? Exterminate whole opposing tribes? Get drunk and get it on your daughters? It’s God’s plan. “Where were you when the heavens were laid out, to question this?”
Well first, I want to concede the point.
I was incorrect and you, and Monty, and Velocity are correct – it was wishful thinking, a fools errand. It does sort of remind of a message shirt I used to have thirty years ago that said “Never try to teach a pig to dance, it just wastes your time and annoys the pig”. I try to see that idea more like it was presented in The Mote in God’s Eye, the authors phrased it thus: a story about someone condemned to death who promised to teach the ruler’s favorite horse to sing within a year. Everyday the the prisoner would sing to the horse (maybe feed it a special diet- I don’t recall every detail). One day a stable worker asked why he wasted his time and the condemned replied: “I have a year longer to live, in that time the ruler may die, the horse may die, or I may die; and who knows-- the horse may learn to sing.”
Second, it is ironic you chose those random careers. Of the many people I was most thinking of when I dreamed this up, one was an aerospace engineer who built jet engines before retirement, and another works for a patent lawyer! Of course there are clerks and factory workers and barbers and lots of other careers represented (and many are retired at this point), but the two I have the most hope for, and the strongest attachment to were sort of named by you.
Third, I was not actually referring to personality quirks. Those two referred to above in particular, and many I have spoken with state with definitive authority very specific character traits like Biden being evil, liberal, and openly underhanded-- while Trump is devout, pious, and honest to a fault. In fact, they claim that is why he is denigrated by the left – he is TOO honest. Never mind, I still can’t capture the astoundingly absurd characterizations a few of them hold - they are extreme.
Fourth, I am going to get a dig in. Beside all the moral failings listed in the bible for both the Deity and His followers, there is also the magical thinking where someone holds their hands in the air and stops the Sun from revolving around the Earth. (Not only magical – but profoundly ignorant of His own creation. These folks I really do care about, hate when I refer to their sacred writings as: The Goat Herders Guide to the Universe [credit to Seth Andrews at The Thinking Atheist for that]).
Last, I have made an argument now. I invested time and effort and actually held back items hoping there would be some discussion and we could extend a civil debate because there is a preponderance of evidence to draw upon. Now posters can choose to look at the evidence and not fear their God will shrink, or they can stay right where they started. More than happy to discuss and engage because I was there at one time too. I have been in both positions and I prefer to know more and have more than one option.
There was still hope Trump would grow into the job and I didn’t know he was so very dangerous to the Nation and our institutions in 2016. Now I am highly invested because of what he can completely destroy if reelected. Less urgently I am sad that he is using these voters to accomplish the opposite of their goal of a good and strong America, and all for a few trinkets like a justice or a promise. No Americans have been so thoroughly taken advantage of since a tribe of Native Americans sold Manhattan for a few blankets and some shiny beads.
Thank you for your sincere reply.
I think this is true of most politicians and doubly so of Trump, but luckily his interests and parts of my preferred agenda align.
Many of those who have convinced themselves that Trump is actually pious or devout, just lack the emotional/intellectual guts puddlegum has, to “own” that it is all about who has an agenda that hits closer to what they would want to see happen in the world, and willing to be pragmatic about it.
Oh, and I almost forgot…
Let’s remember that to some of the “Evangelical Base”, that means he’s not really Christian. My goodness, Irma, look, he’s a follower of that commie Francis! He’s genuflecting before graven images and praying repetitively with beads!
I watched as much of that stuff as I could stand. The only part I think that would shock people listening to him for a day was him paying off the porn star which is not something he does every day just something he did once.
This is the crux of the disagreement. Trump’s friends are consistent that he is narcissistic, selfish, and untruthful. It is clear he is a man of lousy character. He has cheated on all his wives, that is all I need to know about his character and that he is a horrible person. However, it is not unethical tactics or strategies to use a bad person to do good, it is the only way to accomplish goals. When I go to a restaurant in a couple months, should I make sure the waitron and the cooks are all decent God fearing people? Is it okay to eat there if I suspect the manager drinks and does drugs in his free time? Is the goal of eating a delicious chinese meal justified by the end of letting bad people make and serve the food? I find that question nonsensical, as the only thing I care about in the transaction is that they are good at their job.
George HW Bush was a war hero, devoted family man, one of the most decent and nice people to ever serve as president, he also nominated David Souter to the Supreme Court. Him being a good person is in the grand scheme of things more important than him being a good president. However the job Trump is running for is not to be a great family man, or a gracious person, it is to be the president and try to pass laws and nominate people to execute those laws.
I will stipulate that Biden’s faith is real and he seems to be a good family man. I would rather have him as a family member than Trump. That is not the job he is running for. Biden wants to allow abortions too be tax payer funded, he wants Christians to be run out of business if they try to run their business along moral lines, he wants to raise taxes, he wants to increase regulations, he wants government to take over healthcare, he wants to nominate judges who will ignore the constitution, etc.
There is an ad that Biden is running that crystallizes why I disagree with your reasoning. He says that the election is a battle for the soul of the nation. As a Christian we are told to “trust not in princes” but Biden is saying that the president controls the soul of the country. I am sure you studied in Bible school how the Israelites wanted a king instead of judges. If we approach the presidency as a spiritual office rather than as a secular one we are making the same mistake as the Israelites did.
Technically only one, I suppose, depending on your definition of “porn star.” He also paid off Karen McDougal. who, though she was a Playboy Playmate (and Playmate of the Year), and thus, posed nude for both magazines and videos, did not, as far as I know, ever act in a sex film. Regardless, he did pay off two women who were in the adult entertainment industry.
Biden is not talking about “soul” in a religious context and I think you probably know that.
The president is the face of the country. He represents what America is supposed to stand for to the rest of the world. America used to have the respect of the world because, at the least, we tried to be a good example of how democracy should work. Now Trump insults our allies, kowtows to dictators and is doing everything he can to dismantle the institutions and programs that made America a force for good in the world.
I’m sure you can overlook Trump being a horrible human being if it furthers your domestic agenda. But the loss of our standing on the world stage by having a complete asshole represent us is not going to be good for America in the long run. We can’t live in this global economy on our own and the rest of the world can manage to get along without us.
This election is not about Democrats and Republicans. It’s about Trump and whether someone completely without any moral compass gets to determine the future of this country and the world.
Another thing Trump does that draws evangelicals to him en masse is his willingness to speak what they want to hear. In one of his rallies Trump talked about how someone told him he was the most famous man in the world and Trump replied no, Jesus is more famous. (an anecdote he repeated again a few days later in another rally)
(Before someone says, what about Biden talking about his Catholicism, or Hillary talking about being a Methodist - ?..it just doesn’t work with voters when a Democrat does it.)
I don’t see how the concept of a soul can be anything but religious
The respect of the rest of the world and five dollars will get you a cup of coffee at any Starbucks. Obama got a Nobel prize for winning the election and the rest of the world loved him. How did it help the US? Did we get better terms in trade deals, did more countries help out in Afghanistan or Iraq?
The anthropomorphizing is getting in the way of clear thinking. Countries don’t have faces and they don’t have friends. They have allies and interests.
This seems like as good a place to start as any. Or perhaps with JRDelirious’s comment that you own your views, that can be pretty brave and you deserve credit for that. I will go even further, you say you did review a portion of the information I provided and that shows a willingness to consider other points of view which is all I cared about. I am not interested in influencing your vote, only wanting you to be informed before you cast it. It would be nice if we came to a closer agreement, but you listened and actually mentioned some things the people in my circle have not grasped over the previous few months. Namely that Biden is a sincere man of faith and you hinted that you can see Trump is not. In fact you kind of imply you don’t trust Trump any more than I do but do consider him a means to get your agenda passed. For going that far I commend you (don’t worry, we will disagree in a paragraph or two).
One more thing, you were not who I had in mind when I started this thread. You are more informed and more realistic than those close to me whom really do have strange and unsupported views of the candidates. I still have many people I interact with to some degree who only know each other slightly if at all, and they all say very similar things that are not as innocent as “all politicians are immoral”. (Although some of them say that too.) But my cousin, and our uncle, and my buddy’s wife, and my barber, and a neighbor, and the kid’s former music teacher, and several others have these views of the candidates which is pure hokum. Few of these people go to the same church or have any other common ground I am aware of (perhaps the local Christian radio station, they do all have that as the default in their cars – but I have never heard anything but music there). In any case, they all believe Biden is beholden to far left elements and was selected as Obama’s VP because of his secret Socialist agenda. Two different ones have versions of “Biden will resign right after the inauguration and hand the reins over to Harris who will nominate Bernie Sanders for VP and move “The Squad” into the cabinet”. One of those two has only a vague idea what the cabinet is so it is not an original idea but I cannot get a straight answer as to where it originated. These views of biden remind me of urban legends, similar but distinct, first hand and always scary. I specifically ask where they hear such things and they all go quite (some of them probably forget am no longer ‘one of them’ and wish they hadn’t let me hear their views). From firsthand accounts, they would expect to see Biden holding strategy sessions where he is not trying to craft the fairest policy, but scheming how to dupe the American public into electing him so he can turn right around and do the opposite of his platform – trying to unite and find consensus.
(ASIDE: Like you, they also describe all Biden policies as attacks upon Christendom. I can see why all of you do, but if you would stop being so oppositional you may see he has some decent compromises which are not ANTI- anything, just trying to find a reasonable middle ground that takes everyone’s concerns into account. These policies are also based upon the fact that just because something is an option does not mean Christians HAVE to participate. Some in your group are blind to the fact that you refuse to live by rules where others have options you do not want – but have no problem instilling restrictive laws others do not want to live under. But this is a distraction, we can discuss that separately if you would like. But ever since I left the faith, it has baffled why any of you true believers care what others outside the faith do as long as it doesn’t hurt another, but that is a different matter.)
The views of Trump are similar but in the opposite direction. I guess I painted too broadly when I said “all Evangelicals”; it seemed pretty universal locally because whenever I am with any of those folks and we interact with grocery clerks or bank tellers for example, they all seemed to agree completely. Perhaps they don’t have the same blind faith in the origin stories for the candidates as my friends, but they do seem to read off the same sheet of music.
Even before you viewed the material I presented you were of a different sort. The believers in my little corner of the world would absolutely be faced with a severe conundrum if they had to view each man for a week exactly because of whom they expect each of them to be. I will have a bone to pick with you below about other matters, but I admit you are not who I meant when this idea was conceived. You neither see Trump with a halo, nor Biden with cloven hooves, horns and a tail. The Evangelicals in my world – most of them do or almost do. Because of their very sheltered and unfounded – but strongly held views, the ‘banality of evil’ that JRDelirious warns about does not apply because the expectation is so specific and so contrary to each candidates demonstrated normal human condition. Like seeing someone unclothed for the first time and only then realizing they are not a natural blonde. It isn’t that they don’t know brunettes exist –it is that they were so sure that person was blonde!!! You are not suffering from that illusion the way those I dreamt this up for are.
So you are making your decisions not based upon a fairy tale view of the candidates but upon a pragmatic view of politics and an eye toward accomplishing your agenda. For that I commend you even though that agenda would counter my own. That being said, I think your “all politicians are corrupt” is overly simplistic and not quite accurate (more below). But I have a long standing and admired acquaintance who holds a similar view. Her opinion is that it is absurd to ask any politician to climb to the top of the dirtiest pile of shit, and then stand there spotless and gleaming. Her contention is that what matters is what gets done. She and I often argue our way back to the one agreement we have about politics – that Jimmy Carter is the most decent and most moral man – but least effective POTUS of recent times. I will agree with you that Papa Bush is a good and moral man for the most part (although I have to admit there are some concerns and potential darkness around his time in the intelligence game – he may have a lot of blood on his hands but that is not the point).
The problem with your stand is that both of you miss that you have conceded the moral high ground. How is it that me, the atheist is the “values voter”? You are seeking a list of desires, I am looking for morality, sincerity, and honesty. You mention some things which I will quote momentarily, but in my view if you are willing to allow a corrupt man to get you those things they can hardly represent your personal morality. I continue to contend that Trump is MUCH more evil and unconventionally corrupt than you believe as I will address later. But is your God really so weak he has to use the reprehensible and immoral to accomplish his goals? I do not mean slightly corrupt or not quite role model quality; I am talking about a disgusting excuse for a human being and paying off porn stars and playboy bunnies are some of his most understandable moral failures. (I will get to that soon enough, hold on.) I do not have much hope you will see that you have literally no more than an agenda - - - it surely as there is a sun and a moon is not any moral conviction. It is only a list of objectives and I will try to demonstrate that below, but first this sidebar. I am sure you see your agenda as moral matters and your rights as a Christian to live free of the shackles of tyranny. I contend they are not even your issues. You may be a shop owner who occasionally has to serve gays or lesbians and if you are I withdraw this point, but I think you are likely not. I also doubt you and your wife have ever entertained having an abortion, or had to down size because of exorbitant taxes. (By-the-way, the president during the greatest Christian time in our history, when “In God We Trust” was added to our money and “One nation under God” was added to the pledge, Eisenhower had a tax rate of 95% – almost all taxes were higher, and we had the longest and most significant period of financial growth ever!) You have these ideal moral standards you want to be the law of the land so that not only believers, but all must live according to your morality. And yet you are willing to vote for a reprobate to achieve these goals. I just can’t reconcile that in my head. We will give power to the immoral because hey, they are all immoral, so we can force morality on others even if they don’t agree with my version of morality. Aren’t you the same folks who dread Sharia Law?
I believe what I have to say next is important and should be considered. I am not attacking your faith, your sincerity, or your intelligence. I respect you puddleglum in all those areas and think you are perfectly capable of reaching your own conclusions without any input from me. But I do want you to consider the following because it might be something you want to know. Do not take my word for any of it, please check the sources for yourself if you want to. It rings very true to me, but you should draw your own conclusions, I might have a huge blind spot (it has happened before).
You obviously did not get to the part in my previous post where I mentioned the three security experts who all quit their posts rather than help Trump any further. They had the moral tenacity to walk away from significant power, access, and resume plumping titles to warn the world about Trump. All three of them told similar stories and none of them were fired. They chose to leave something so corrupt they could not stand to be a part of it by their own account. The one I find the most believable and compelling is Elisabeth Neumann who does claim to be a Christian. I will admit Miles Taylor has some credibility issues and all three of them have been slammed by the White House. Taylor was the reason for the hard search for leakers in the West Wing a few years ago. That also lends credibility to his story in my view because why would they hunt for him so diligently if was just making stuff up?
Taylor told of how Trump was distressed over refugees coming to America from the South, and especially about the laws and practices which would allow them to ask for asylum. It was explained these were mostly women and children who were fleeing horrific conditions and mostly deserved protection. But Trump hated them and didn’t want to appear “weak” to his supporters by allowing them into the country. He asked his staff to shoot them before they came close to American soil. This was of course met with shock and disgust; he was told that was murder, it was illegal, and he had better not suggest it again. Trump told them if they gave the order, he would give them a Presidential Pardon if they did it anyway and got caught. He refused (as he should have) and refused to give anyone else orders to carry out anything along those lines. According to all three of them, later he circled back and asked “How about if we just shoot them in the legs so they can’t reach US soil?” would that be alright? This is not having bad morals or an overactive libido. This is a craven lack of human decency and it is creditable to me, you decide for yourself.
I cannot phrase this strongly enough, if this story is true, Donald J. Trump was willing to shoot and kill harmless, unarmed brown people, mostly women and children, because he didn’t want them coming into his country and using our resources and aid. This is a horrific and despicable man, if you believe this narrative.
If the account is judged to be true, are you willing to vote for him to get some laws passed? If you do not believe the story, do you think it was made up to hurt Trump because the accusers are petty? I mean if you are concerned about Biden allowing abortions and even allowing tax money to pay for them, isn’t this story an issue?
In a similar vein, I thought it was horrible, silly and so beside the point when early in the pandemic there was a cruise ship with like a hundred or so Corona Virus cases on board cruising along the California coast. Trump didn’t want it to dock because then those cases would be added to the number of U.S. cases. I t would have nearly doubled the number of known cases at the time; like the number of cases was the issue. Medical protocols were very sketchy at the time and people could have died (I don’t recall if any did). But how he appeared and what “his” numbers were was a more important consideration than helping people with a potentially deadly condition. But that is nothing compared to shooting innocent women and children to keep them from achieving asylum.
When I was still a true believer (or at least tried to be and thought I was), I was strongly against abortion, but in favor of capital punishment. I used the same justification all believers do – the unborn are innocent while the criminal is not. But I ruminated on that and if my position on the sanctity of life was as devout and unassailable as I professed. After several months I determined it was not and I started to oppose capital punishment too. I decided if I was going to stand on a moral principle it ought to at least be consistent.
You are okay with voting for a man like Trump, but you are concerned about bakers and florists having to serve gays?? Here is the deal, if you have a business that serves the public – you serve the WHOLE public. The same way that a restaurant cannot refuse to serve a person of color – a baker cannot refuse to serve a gay couple. The morality and convictions of the florist or the baker or the photographer are not compromised. You are not endorsing their way by selling them your services, any more than you are required to become Catholic if you bake a wedding cake for a Catholic. Unless you are you are required to personally marry a same sex partner yourself, it is just prejudice. You do not have to become Methodist when you bake a cake for a Methodist and you not need to become a Baptist when you bake a cake for a Baptist. It is just a job like all the others, you do not have to approve and you do not have join in. But if you offer the service for hire as a business, you do not get to discriminate.
I don’t want to get too deep in the weeds here. I doubt it would do any good anyway and it is a distraction from the point. But I wish you could see “reproductive issues” as health related rather than murder related, but let’s not search for miracles here. I am against using abortion as birth control, and after a certain point it is most assuredly immoral. I don’t believe that time is while you are still in a coital embrace but we have lots of room for agreement here. That being said, as a good Catholic family in my youth my mother had a very troubled pregnancy and after consulting with doctors and clergy it was decided my mother would likely die in child birth (that was very unlikely to produce a liable life). Having an abortion to save her life was beyond consideration, and to her credit my mother did not ask for relief but said only “Your will be done”. Nature or God spared us that fate and she miscarried naturally and although there was a long and scary recovery period, my two siblings and I were blessed with many, many years of having a wonderful mother after she recovered and even had another sibling a few years later whom has been a delight for us all – and was a bit of a miracle. Perhaps my parent’s faith preserved them and God rewarded them for their devotion (as the same priest who had told me to prepare for life without a mother later told me). My point is that abortion is not necessarily always, always, always wrong. That is far too simple a view of the world. Think about losing your wife for a potential future life that is very much not self sustaining and is most likely to die when the mother dies anyway. I believe being moral and upright means seeing the world as it is and doing as good for all as circumstance allows. Abortion was only a Catholic issue years ago and only became a mainstream Protestant issue in the last forty years or so. Right wing politicians are using that issue to manipulate you and I hope you read some the books listed above and see that for yourself someday. Perhaps read Mahaloth’s recommendation- The Power Worshipers by: Katherine Stewart sometime. (He is also a believer I admire and respect.)
Concerning putting your faith in Princes.
Yes, it seemed that Priest, Prophet, Judge, or King – whatever ruler was in evidence the chosen people would unfriend G-d and start to live in wickedness. I want to divide your argument into two points, please forgive me. This is already too long but you make a good point (and a not as good point) that should be examined. Your point about trusting in princes does not hold and you sort of explain why in the same paragraph. Trump and Biden are both men who will die and rot in the ground, they are not able to save like the LORD our God. Even with Biden’s advertisement about the soul of the nation (which I will address directly), as you point out this is a secular government built upon pluralism and a respect for the views of others. PLURALISM; A RESPECT FOR THE VIEWS OF OTHERS. There is no presumption of one view being superior to others or that others should have to adhere to any specific belief; something the Judeo/Christian sect does not always grasp. The scripture says do not rely upon any earthly ruler, but trust in G-d alone. (So advantage to neither Trump nor Biden – both earthly men although I would say if you had to jud….never mind.)
The second part bears examination. Biden does claim this election is a battle for the soul of the nation. I happen to agree, but not perhaps how you think I agree. Here we need to as Hebrews says, cut between souls and spirit, between joint and marrow to reach the attitude of the heart. This nation is divided and it is not functioning well. Politically, I put that very much at the feet of the entire Republican Party (and remember I have been a registered Republican for a long while), especially Mitch McConnell and Donald Trump. I believe Biden does want to heal and unite, and I believe he is sincere. That really is the desire of his heart, to unite and to heal and return us to moral high ground we once held but have sacrificed to get the trinkets of certain judges and certain laws. But I believe he wants to do that not as a spiritual leader but as a MORAL leader, to split the soul and the spirit It is often difficult for people of faith to separate the two, but they can be and often times should be separated. He wants to, Biden that is, wants to be a MORAL, SECULAR leader of this nation. To respect all citizens and all views, not as our spiritual leader – but to reclaim the American spirit. He wants to capture the soul of America and demonstrate love and tolerance and acceptance and to respect each other, to be at most adversaries – not enemies. That means that we are all going to have to give a little, but we will also get a little. It means the Christian right will have to use evangelism to build its kingdom (as God intended by my recollection) and not laws. You just quoted how the people wanted leaders like the surrounding nations – and when it was given they failed. Please do not count on laws and justices to make this nation holy (that is the trusting in Princes). Trust in God to turn the hearts of the nation toward redemption- not justices to forbid woman to do what they desire. That is actually the opposite of the Christian message as far as I am concerned.
The Christians I admire (and I still do some work here and there for the cause if I believe it is moral and just) are the ones who want to respect the individual enough to let them decide and to teach an eager convert rather than legislate laws that state: EVERYONE MUST HAVE THE SAME MORALS THAT I HAVE. Legislating morality has always failed – even for God’s chosen people (as the difference between the Law and the Gospel demonstrates perfectly). Why don’t you devout try showing others what is superior about your religion of love and acceptance rather than trying to legislate your version into everyone’s life? Okay, sermon is over sorry for the fire and brimstone during the middle section.
You are a stand up guy puddleglum, you looked, you learned, you thought, you taught me a few things. I was wrong in lumping you into the crowd of believers I know. I agree you would not benefit from viewing the political candidates with the ones I have in mind. What I wish for you now is what I wish for myself and a few others, that we could see the strength and love of Jesus (as he is presented in the Gospels) in the lives of his followers and perhaps even in heathens like me.
Even though I do not believe, and even though it is very Liturgical and not what Americans think of as Evangelical (in Germany however Evangelical churches are liturgical), I have always found the Confessional prayer a thing of beauty because of the humility and scope of it and for the fact that is always accompanied by forgiveness. I don’t have a God to forgive me, but I still want to remain in a state of grace even if only from my fellow man:
I confess that I am sinful and unclean, that I have sinned in thought, word, and deed. That I have not loved you with my whole heart, I have not loved my neighbor as myself, I justly deserve present and eternal punishment. Forgive me, renew me, and lead me so I may delight in your will and walk in your ways to the glory of your name.
I say it as a prayer to my fellow man, not unto God as it were. But it still has a beautiful sentiment to it in my opinion. I hope I haven’t stepped too far over any lines.
Boy, oh boy. I started writing this yesterday afternoon then dozed off and woke late and wrote through much of the night. I knew it was an incoherent load of babble so I woke intending to clean it up and pare it down. Instead it just got longer and less to the point. I hope there is some value here for someone.
I confess that I am sinful and unclean, that I have sinned in thought, word, and deed. By what I have done, and what I have left undone. I have not loved you with my whole heart, I have not loved my neighbor as myself, I justly deserve present and eternal punishment. Forgive me, renew me, and lead me so I may delight in your will and walk in your ways to the glory of your name.
Balls! I left out my favorite sentence.
He also sets foreign policy directs the State Department and negotiates treaties. By all accounts (and from what we know about Americans and American companies paying almost all imposed tariffs), Trump has mostly made photo opportunities of poorly constructed deals. He has also dismantled various long running US entities like STARS &STRIPES as well as THE VOICE OF AMERICA.
Yes, we often paid a bit more than our fair share, but that is the price you pay for being the only remaining viable superpower. The benefits we reaped as a nation from giving shit away for free and paying all the freight during The Marshal Plan was enormous! Trying to get the better of a vastly inferior nation like some two bit street hustler has cost us untold fortunes in reciprocation and respect.
You know, as a young and limited nation we once benefited from a stronger nation. It is said The War of 1812 was one where we lost the war but won the Peace. The much richer and more established adversary were gracious and gave us more than perhaps we deserved. It cost them little but benefited us greatly. I for one am not comfortable with Trump stomping around pissing off every nation toward us.