I would admire a Christian if I met one.

[cosmosdan]

@the raindog

If you are saying—and I think you are in some way (correct me if I’m wrong)----that anyone who is sincere (and tried to apply Christian principles etc) must be on a valid path, I would have to disagree. I hear many people say that your personal doctrines don’t matter—that any flavor of Christianity (and many people say any doctrine at all is valid) is valid because all roads lead to the same place.

To which I say, “no.” That doesn’t mean that I am in a position to judge you or your path. But I am reminded of some powerful texts where Jesus said that he would meet sincere, hard working people who ‘prophesied, expelled demons, did powerful works in his name etc’ and he would say ‘I never knew you. Get away from me you workers of lawlessness.’ He said ‘only those doing the will of my Father’ would see salvation. The bible is full of examples of people who were sincere and genuine but who were punished for what amounted to rebellion; they did their own thing in contradiction to what the “law” said.

I’m shortening your post to respond to select sections.

I’m familiar with the text you mention. Jesus was pointing out once again that lip service to God and ceremony are no substitute for love expressed toward our fellow man. I think what Liberal or liberal Christians may be saying, is that although doctrines may vary in detail if the particular flavor of Christianity leads a person to bear good fruit and they sincerely seek love , then eventually we will get to the same place. Along the way I think doctrines will fall away as we replace struggling to love our fellow man with actually loving our fellow man.

It seems absolutely elementary to me that someone wanting to be a Christian must learn what Christ taught. (and that includes his appointed Church; the writings of the NT) It includes knowing the “letter of the law” and having a discerning, working understanding of what the bible says, and imprinting this on one’s heart, so that one lives the “spirit of the law.”

I find no case for [sincere] willful ignorance.

I think knowledge and study is a wonderful thing. I know I enjoy it. I think knowledge may help us live the spirit of the law but it is not necessary. Jesus told us which two commandments were the most important. If that was the only scarp of paper we had and all we ever read it would be enough if we tried to live it.

Many may say, however, "I am not ignorant. I have chosen to deviate from the bible in these specific ways because…“Biblical writers, editors and compilers were limited by their times and world views, even as we are, the Bible contains material wedded to those times and places…we also find in the Bible human emotion, testimony, opinion, cultural limitation and bias…” **I think it is a worthy discussion to have. **

Here too, I look to history and to the bible to see if God, Christ and the 40 bible writers had anything to say about “deviations” like these. Did God, Jesus, Paul et al face issues like these? Did they weigh in on the issue of “strict adherence”? How was the bible/law/written scrolls/parchments handled and viewed by both Jews and Christians alike? How did they view the written laws that governed their lives and worship? How did first century Christians behave? What about the centuries that followed?

All worthy of study. I find the time surrounding the actual compilation of the books that were canonized very interesting. it seems to me that should affect what we consider the Bible is or is not in terms of spiritual authority.

I find no credible historical or biblical basis for [sincere] willful rebellion or deviation.

Who gets to judge when that occurs and for whom?

Ironically, this is deja vu all over again. The religious establishment Jesus found was rife with religious leaders who were no longer following the [Mosaic] Law, or had added a series of man made addendums (Jesus called them “traditions”; sound familiar?) to the Law, or who were “gaming” the Law; paying lip service to it and making a show of it while not following it at all.

I agree.

Considering Christ’s life and teachings in it’s full and accurate context, it seems absolutely clear to me that my personal sensibilities must be subordinated to God’s.

How is that accomplished? As I read it we are to seek spiritual maturity until there is nothing left to subordinate.

My reading of the lives of the NT Christians, and the first century Christians—and even a good deal of the Church in the centuries that followed-----shows that a Christian:

1. Endeavors to read and understand Christianity in the way that Christ taught it, and through prayer apply that knowledge in one’s heart. There is no case for Google-Fu like knowledge.

Endeavors to read and understand would include using all the modern tools at our disposal wouldn’t it? I find it fortunate that so many resources for study are available to many more people.

2. Subordinates self will in favor of God’s will; that a Christian remains humble and obedient and accepts God on God’s terms. There is no case for well-intentioned Cafeteria Christianity, where one picks and chooses what they will follow.

The problem I see is that realistically everyone who places the Bible as the ultimate authority on what Jesus taught based on their personal interpretation can’t do anything else but pick and choose what they will follow. Sincerity and hours of study notwithstanding.

IMO Jesus clearly taught us to follow the living spirit of God and to know that spirit by the fruit it bears within humans. Someone who knows little of Christ or Christianity can do that.
Speaking of tradition, I see no reason to think other modern day authors are less inspired than the authors of the Bible. Whatever we gain from reading or studying any source is only valuable as the living spirit illuminates us and we find the courage to follow where it leads.

[raindog]

@Liberal

Jesus singles out children and simple-minded people as those to whom God has revealed His message most plainly. These are people who, possibly in most cases, have read little or nothing at all.

Look at the context of his words. Was he singling out the childlike qualities of innocence, humility and unpretentiousness, or ignorance and stupidity?

Liberal, look at the account: Matthew 18:1-6
*"…1At that time the disciples came to Jesus and asked, “Who is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven?”

2He called a little child and had him stand among them. 3And he said: "I tell you the truth, unless you change and become like little children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven. 4Therefore, whoever humbles himself like this child is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven.

5"And whoever welcomes a little child like this in my name welcomes me. 6But if anyone causes one of these little ones who believe in me to sin, it would be better for him to have a large millstone hung around his neck and to be drowned in the depths of the sea…"* Bolding/Italics mine

Jesus also said at Matthew 11, *"…16"To what can I compare this generation? They are like children sitting in the marketplaces and calling out to others:17" ‘We played the flute for you, and you did not dance; we sang a dirge and you did not mourn.’ 18For John came neither eating nor drinking, and they say, ‘He has a demon.’ 19The Son of Man came eating and drinking, and they say, 'Here is a glutton and a drunkard, a friend of tax collectors and “sinners.” ’ But wisdom is proved right by her actions." 20Then Jesus began to denounce the cities in which most of his miracles had been performed, because they did not repent. 21"Woe to you, Korazin! Woe to you, Bethsaida! If the miracles that were performed in you had been performed in Tyre and Sidon, they would have repented long ago in sackcloth and ashes. 22But I tell you, it will be more bearable for Tyre and Sidon on the day of judgment than for you. 23And you, Capernaum, will you be lifted up to the skies? No, you will go down to the depths.[a] If the miracles that were performed in you had been performed in Sodom, it would have remained to this day. 24But I tell you that it will be more bearable for Sodom on the day of judgment than for you." Rest for the Weary 25At that time Jesus said, **"I praise you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because you have hidden these things from the wise and learned, and revealed them to little children. *26Yes, Father, for this was your good pleasure…" (italics/bolding mine. parallel account at Luke 10:21)

The most ironic part of your [semi] cite was the way Jesus behaved. Jesus continuously subordinated his own reasoning do discern the will of his father. Did Jesus subscribe to a model of blissful, loving ignorance? No! Remember Jesus encountering Satan after his trek in the wilderness? Look at his responses to Satan; look at Matt 4:4 and notice he was citing De 8:3.; look at Matt 4:7 and notice he was citing De 6:16; look at Matt 4:10 and notice he was citing De 10:20 and Jos 24:14.

In these accounts Jesus is speaking about a person’s heart condition; that a person who God would reach out to would be humble, and who had not become “wise in their own eyes.” (see Pr 3:7) A person does not/did not need to be a bible scholar to be drawn to Jesus. Rather, they needed the qualities of humility and a heart condition and mental condition that was receptive to his message. But while a person did not need to be a scholar to be drawn to Jesus, Christians were expected to learn about their faith, to learn about their God.

In other word, Liberal, the lives of those who came to Jesus show that while they were ordinary people, who in many cases were “ordinary and unlettered”, (see Acts 4:13) upon baptism they joined a movement that used the Holy Scriptures extensively and made the Holy Writings central to their day to day lives.

Paul spoke about this too. He, like Jesus, assailed the “intellectual ones”, saying at 1 Cor 1:19-21: “…19For it is written: “I will destroy the wisdom of the wise; the intelligence of the intelligent I will frustrate.”[a] 20Where is the wise man? Where is the scholar? Where is the philosopher of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world? 21For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not know him, God was pleased through the foolishness of what was preached to save those who believe…” (It’s absolutely worth noting that Paul was not using his own reasoning here, but quoting the scriptures. See Ps 33:10, Jer 8:9 and Isa 29:14)

Was Paul advocating a blissful, loving ignorance? Of course not! Paul also counseled the congregation in Jerusalem, saying, “12In fact, though by this time you ought to be teachers, you need someone to teach you the elementary truths of God’s word all over again. You need milk, not solid food! 13Anyone who lives on milk, being still an infant, is not acquainted with the teaching about righteousness. 14But solid food is for the mature, who by constant use have trained themselves to distinguish good from evil.” Heb 5:12-14

There are dozens of NT cites that indicate that Christians were admonished to read the holy writings, meditate upon them, share them with others, apply them, and live their lives in accordance with them.

Lastly, can you conceive Peter saying, “You know, Jesus got it wrong. Here’s what you should be doing…” Yet again and again Christians----both individual Christians, and their Churches -----claim to know better than Christ, than Paul, than Peter, then…

I would submit that these texts apply to ELCA et al in as much as they have not humbled themselves and accepted God on God’s terms. The policy statement that Genghis Bob posted is striking for it’s hubris and arrogance.

They’ve said in so many words, “We’re not following [at least some of] the bible’s teachings because we know better. We know better than Paul. We know better than Peter (et al) The bible writers were limited by their times and world views, and is archaic (“wedded to those times and places”.) We also believe the bible is flawed as it contains opinion, bias, etc…”

That arrogance and presumptuousness accurately describes the “intellectual ones” that both Jesus and Paul talked about.

It is a mistake to attach analytic mastery and finesse to salvation.

As it relates to salvation, we are in agreement.

But let’s be clear about what we’re really talking about.

The real issue is one of authority, or rather, whose authority one is willing to accept. If “analytic mastery and finesse” are code words for knowledge, than I’d say that this board has a diverse base of knowledge. (while I believe most of it is dubious and served up as googled fast food)

I see thread after thread where Christians cite authors, historical references, philosophers, poets, humanists of all stripes, and pundits. Some of those cites are scholarly, arcane and complex. I dare say that in Bible discussions C.S. Lewis is cited more often than the Apostle Paul.

Yet if a poster dares to cite the bible in a bible based discussion (or in a discussion where the bible historically would have been the authority) as a primary cite, he/she is open for some derision. I’ve seen charges like, “slavishly worshiping the book” and the like.

The real issue, in my experience, is not that someone is willing (or able) to cite the bible scripture and verse, but rather the bible is held in derision as an authority on the matter of Christianity.

[raindog]

@cosmosdan

I’m shortening your post to respond to select sections.

I’m familiar with the text you mention. Jesus was pointing out once again that lip service to God and ceremony are no substitute for love expressed toward our fellow man. I think what Liberal or liberal Christians may be saying, is that although doctrines may vary in detail if the particular flavor of Christianity leads a person to bear good fruit and they sincerely seek love , then eventually we will get to the same place. Along the way I think doctrines will fall away as we replace struggling to love our fellow man with actually loving our fellow man.

I agree with this. Christians sometimes get wrapped around the axle over obscure or arcane references that produce doctrine.

I think knowledge and study is a wonderful thing. I know I enjoy it. I think knowledge may help us live the spirit of the law but it is not necessary. Jesus told us which two commandments were the most important. If that was the only scarp of paper we had and all we ever read it would be enough if we tried to live it.

Well…

As a global quality, and as a guiding principle, I think we’d do well to follow those 2 commandments. But, IMV, a balanced and comprehensive review of Jesus’s teachings, and the rest of the bible (and NT specifically) show many specific things that are required of those who would be called Christians.

I don’t believe a biblical case can be made that Jesus was essentially saying, “Ignore everything you’ve been taught, (including my own teachings!) and just love.”

All worthy of study. I find the time surrounding the actual compilation of the books that were canonized very interesting. it seems to me that should affect what we consider the Bible is or is not in terms of spiritual authority.

A worthy discussion.

Who gets to judge when that occurs and for whom?

According to the bible, only God and Jesus.

It happens as “judgment day.” (as to what judgment day is, that is another thread)

“Whom” is all of humanity.

How is that accomplished? As I read it we are to seek spiritual maturity until there is nothing left to subordinate.

Very interesting comment.

Endeavors to read and understand would include using all the modern tools at our disposal wouldn’t it? I find it fortunate that so many resources for study are available to many more people.

I suppose so.

However, Solomon cautioned that "2But beyond this, my son, be warned: the writing of many books is endless, and excessive devotion to books is wearying to the body. "

(and followed up, " 13The conclusion, when all has been heard, is: fear God and keep His commandments, because this applies to every person.)

The world is full of crackpots, cranks and zealots, all of whom it seems have been issued IP addresses. From my POV, discretion has to be used as to what is wheat and what is chaff.

The problem I see is that realistically everyone who places the Bible as the ultimate authority on what Jesus taught based on their personal interpretation can’t do anything else but pick and choose what they will follow. Sincerity and hours of study notwithstanding.

This is a common sentiment and from my reading, I disagree.

I think many people want to believe that the bible is so obscure, arcane and oblique as to be indiscernible. That gives them the freedom to carry on in the way they wish; to be self directed.

As a practical guide, the bible is no where near as difficult as people would like it to be.

Speaking of tradition, I see no reason to think other modern day authors are less inspired than the authors of the Bible. Whatever we gain from reading or studying any source is only valuable as the living spirit illuminates us and we find the courage to follow where it leads.

That is one belief to be sure. Obviously, I disagree.

While I can appreciate the thoughts and writings of others, when they espouse a belief or course that is in contrast to the bible, I have to see if there is a compelling case for deviating from the path outlined by Christ et al.

Mosier has posted a long list of issues where Christianity is seemingly out of step with the teachings of Christ. (and I personally include the other bible teachings)

I have yet to find a single compelling argument for rejecting the teachings of Christ, or the bible as a whole, based on the reasonings of some author or theologian.

Christianity certainly has, and Mosier isn’t the first to note it. The results speak for themselves.

[Liberal]

@the raindog

I would submit that these texts apply to ELCA et al in as much as they have not humbled themselves and accepted God on God’s terms. The policy statement that Genghis Bob posted is striking for it’s hubris and arrogance.

They’ve said in so many words, “We’re not following [at least some of] the bible’s teachings because we know better. We know better than Paul. We know better than Peter (et al) The bible writers were limited by their times and world views, and is archaic (“wedded to those times and places”.) We also believe the bible is flawed as it contains opinion, bias, etc…”

That arrogance and presumptuousness accurately describes the “intellectual ones” that both Jesus and Paul talked about.

It’s amazing how attuned you are at assessing the hubris and arrogance of others. One is given to wonder whether God Himself, were He to judge us, might pause to secure your advice beforehand lest He run afoul of your favorite scriptural issues. Even more remarkable, however, is your revolving appeal to reason and intellect even as you blissfully ignore both for your own purposes — swallowing circular arguments like camel meat. (The Bible is without error because, see? It says so right here!)

The children and simpleminded people that Jesus noted — they were innocent precisely because they lacked the knowledge of good and evil, just as the metaphorical Adam and Eve were innocent for the same reason. As He told the Pharisees, it is because you claim to know that you are held to account, and judgment is measured to you in the exact measure you dish it out. Goodness and Godliness are found in the heart, not in the brain.

I call upon you in His name to stop fretting over these gnats and specks, and start being free. Truth is not something you know, but something you value. He is Himself the Truth, and must be worshipped in that spirit. You are to cease being an obstacle between God and other men. You are no longer to use scripture as a hammer of discipline for those you believe are headed the wrong way, because you are not the way. He is the Way. When you have accomplished this, let me know. We will have more to discuss.

ETA:

I can’t believe sometimes the position this board puts me in, of having to assail things like science and reason simply because people have lifted them out of their place and made them into mockeries of themselves.

[raindog]

@Liberal

It’s amazing how attuned you are at assessing the hubris and arrogance of others. One is given to wonder whether God Himself, were He to judge us, might pause to secure your advice beforehand lest He run afoul of your favorite scriptural issues. Even more remarkable, however, is your revolving appeal to reason and intellect even as you blissfully ignore both for your own purposes — swallowing circular arguments like camel meat. (The Bible is without error because, see? It says so right here!)

I have to admit that, in my view, it is indeed arrogance and hubris to rewrite the scriptures (or dismiss them wholesale) because one presumes to know better then Christ, Paul et al.

I have neither appealed to reason or intellect. As to the former, it seems clear to me that reasoning is something we are all doing naturally; each of us has something we’d like to add to the discussion and are reasoning with each other.

As to the latter, I don’t believe I have ever appealed to intellect. As a veteran lurker I have seen many posters post their credentials and cite the most arcane and dense material. I’ve seen hundreds of my-scholar-can-beat-up-your-scholar exchanges. I’ve seen many exchanges where posters (including esteemed members) appealed to virtually every intellectual, popular author, web site, and pundit.

I have never posted my credentials here, and the most I’ve ever said (IIRC) is that I am a student. [of the bible] On many occasions I’ve admonished people to not take anything I say as truth ,and have encouraged people to go to the source, and I’d be pleased to cite that.

The children and simpleminded people that Jesus noted — they were innocent precisely because they lacked the knowledge of good and evil, just as the metaphorical Adam and Eve were innocent for the same reason. As He told the Pharisees, it is because you claim to know that you are held to account, and judgment is measured to you in the exact measure you dish it out.

This is not [necessarily] true. Jesus humility and innocence as qualities that were needed to accept him, and it would surely seem that intellectualism is a stumbling block.

Yet, Paul, the most stalwart character in the NT, was highly educated. I am not, however.

Yet it seems clear to me from reading the bible (without regard to any personal theology) that historically servants of God read the holy writings. They were central to their lives. They were used as a reference, and as a guide that governed their decisions. In the NT, for example, there are hundreds of texts where a Christian was referencing a text from the OT----something that would be unclear to the casual reader. They read their ‘bible’, and they applied those things in their lives. Do you read something different, Liberal?

Goodness and Godliness are found in the heart, not in the brain. I call upon you in His name to stop fretting over these gnats and specks, and start being free. Truth is not something you know, but something you value. He is Himself the Truth, and must be worshipped in that spirit. You are to cease being an obstacle between God and other men. You are no longer to use scripture as a hammer of discipline for those you believe are headed the wrong way, because you are not the way. He is the Way. When you have accomplished this, let me know. We will have more to discuss.

This is a tired SDMB mantra. What goes on in your heart, and what goes on in your brain, are not mutually exclusive.

Would you like me to believe that tomndebb, and Polycarp are loving idiots? Of course not. Do you consider the statement, “…Proposition: a Christian who takes seriously the commands of Christ (as opposed to apparent hyperbole) is obliged to have an ethics that is more or less humanist, within a theocentric framework…” a well thought out, intellectual statement? I do. (although I disagree)

Is this a reasoned statement?: “…I accept no authority of this world on the subject of who is a Christian, other than me, and my authority ends with me, and Christ. I have His assurance that I will be subject to his Judgment. Part of that is biblical, but the biblical part never really worked for me…” Looks like one to me. (although I disagree)

I could bog down the SDMB servers (which seem to need little encouragement in that regard) with cites from Christians that are intellectual in nature and form the basis of their reasonings about their faith. (including many from you)

All of us who identify as Christian use our hearts to establish a relationship with God. But all of us have our faith shaped and refined by the things we learn. I submit that the source of learning are many.

For my part, I reject the intellectualism of this board and the litany of authorities that are cited. The greatest authority of all is “self.” I reject my own sensibilities and try to conform my beliefs and faith with the teachings of Christ et al, and find no compelling historical biblical basis---- or example—that allows me to make [my] “self” the arbiter as to what is right and wrong.

I have nothing left than but to use the teachings of Christ et al as my cite and authority. (as cosmosdan, in a most fascinating way put it, “As I read it we are to seek spiritual maturity until there is nothing left to subordinate…”)

If that makes me uppity, so be it.

But the irony is palpable.

I can’t believe sometimes the position this board puts me in, of having to assail things like science and reason simply because people have lifted them out of their place and made them into mockeries of themselves.

Imagine how I feel. :dubious:

[cosmosdan]

First let me say RATS!! I was well into a response when the power blinked off. . ok…I vented.
I appreciate your response to me and Liberal I know your schedule sometimes doesn’t permit as much participation. I’m glad you had time.

@the raindog

Well…

As a global quality, and as a guiding principle, I think we’d do well to follow those 2 commandments. But, IMV, a balanced and comprehensive review of Jesus’s teachings, and the rest of the bible (and NT specifically) show many specific things that are required of those who would be called Christians.

I agree that those who have the time and resources are well served to make a committed study. Studying has certainly changed the way I see things. I had questions and I sought the answers. I’m sure you’d agree that scholastic knowledge is no substitute for a genuine loving heart. People have different gifts. For some study and teaching, for some visiting the sick, helping the poor, making music. It takes a balance. At the core we need a desire to know the truth, and learn the depths of love.

I don’t believe a biblical case can be made that Jesus was essentially saying, “Ignore everything you’ve been taught, (including my own teachings!) and just love.”

Well no. I think he’d say that all his teachings were to help us to love more completely, and, to discern all the things we mistakenly call love from actual love.

Very interesting comment.

Sometimes I get lucky

I suppose so.

However, Solomon cautioned that "2But beyond this, my son, be warned: the writing of many books is endless, and excessive devotion to books is wearying to the body. "

(and followed up, " 13The conclusion, when all has been heard, is: fear God and keep His commandments, because this applies to every person.)

The world is full of crackpots, cranks and zealots, all of whom it seems have been issued IP addresses. From my POV, discretion has to be used as to what is wheat and what is chaff.

I was thinking more of Christian history, information about the books of the Bible, where they came from, who we think wrote them and when, who selected which books would be accepted or rejected and why. Also information about various denominations and other world religions.

It’s interesting that your Solomon quote seems to balance your stressing of study. All the knowledge we can gain won’t make a difference if we’re not useing it in our daily lives with compassion.

This is a common sentiment and from my reading, I disagree.

I think many people want to believe that the bible is so obscure, arcane and oblique as to be indiscernible. That gives them the freedom to carry on in the way they wish; to be self directed.

As a practical guide, the bible is no where near as difficult as people would like it to be.

I think for many it’s not that extreme, or for that reason. The basics and more are there. For myself studying the history of the Bible really opened my eyes. It became a matter of wanting to sift the truth from all the tradition. Recognizing the Bible for what it is or is not as far as spiritual authority is concerned does not change the value of Jesus’ words. Giving it too much authority can limit our quest for understanding unnecessarily.

That is one belief to be sure. Obviously, I disagree.

While I can appreciate the thoughts and writings of others, when they espouse a belief or course that is in contrast to the bible, I have to see if there is a compelling case for deviating from the path outlined by Christ et al.

Mosier has posted a long list of issues where Christianity is seemingly out of step with the teachings of Christ. (and I personally include the other bible teachings)

I have yet to find a single compelling argument for rejecting the teachings of Christ, or the bible as a whole, based on the reasonings of some author or theologian.
Christianity certainly has, and Mosier isn’t the first to note it. The results speak for themselves.

Seeking the truth about the Bible and it’s purpose is not rejecting the Bible.
Four passages are among the key ones for me.

James 1:5 If any of you lacks wisdom, he should ask God, who gives generously to all without finding fault, and it will be given to him.

John 4:24
God is spirit, and his worshipers must worship in spirit and in truth.

John 8:32
Then you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free."

John 16:13
But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all truth.

Trusting my inner spiritual connection with God and believing I have access to the only authority, I have no need to hold a book or collection of books as authoritative on this subject.

Believing that God loves all men equally I think any person from any culture who seeks the truth and then writes down their insight and experiences has something to offer. All part of trying the spirits IMO.

I also see no evidence that there would be any end to inspiration that prompts authors to write down valuable insights. Jesus said to his disciples

John 16:12"I have much more to say to you, more than you can now bear.

I think that is also true for mankind as a whole. As I mature as an individual I am able to understand more and apply it. As mankind as a race matures we are ready to hear and understand more. What reason do we have outside of tradition to think there would be one final authoritative collection of writings and no more?

Of course there’s lots of junk out there and we don’t accept any old claim of “Hey! God told me to say this and write this” We can trust that inner connection and the guidance of the Holy Spirit to help us sift the wheat from the chaff as long as love and truth remain our goals.

I think the problem with Christianity lies at least in part with the fact that too many desire some external authority such as the Bible and we do see the results. Christians can’t agree on what the Bible means and won’t accept anything else.
I have no problem with ceremony and tradition until they take priority over the truth.
“We are drawn to the light but make the mistake of worshiping the lamp” as the saying goes.

[raindog]

@cosmosdan

I appreciate your response to me and Liberal I know your schedule sometimes doesn’t permit as much participation. I’m glad you had time.

Thank you. I often wish I had more time, and I often think I’ve come to know people like you, Liberal, Polycarp, Diogenes, tomndebb et al from the many times I lurk/post.

I agree that those who have the time and resources are well served to make a committed study. Studying has certainly changed the way I see things. I had questions and I sought the answers. I’m sure you’d agree that scholastic knowledge is no substitute for a genuine loving heart. People have different gifts. For some study and teaching, for some visiting the sick, helping the poor, making music. It takes a balance. At the core we need a desire to know the truth, and learn the depths of love.

I couldn’t agree with this more.

As to how this might apply to our “community” here, I have to remind myself that I am only seeing a small fraction of the person I perceive Liberal (as one example, and who, in any event, I like and respect ) to be. In my case, it is a flaw in my communication style that I may come across (on this MB) as having a bias in favor of the scholastic to the detriment of the “matters of the heart.” That flaw is amplified because I often perceive a strong board bias in the opposite direction. I often feel like a counterweight; something that I don’t experience anywhere else.

I was thinking more of Christian history, information about the books of the Bible, where they came from, who we think wrote them and when, who selected which books would be accepted or rejected and why. Also information about various denominations and other world religions.

We share that interest. Long before I joined the faith I belong to, I spent countless hours researching this. It continues to interest me.

It’s interesting that your Solomon quote seems to balance your stressing of study. All the knowledge we can gain won’t make a difference if we’re not useing it in our daily lives with compassion.

As I’ve said before, it seems clear to me that bible ignorance is endemic, even among Christians.

It is interesting that you used the word “balance.” I think that is something that many of us are really talking about. For my part, 10-20 minutes of study each day is an acceptable, balanced, routine for me. That leaves me more than ample time for me to live the principles I’m being taught. (and noting that I fall short of the glory of God each and every day)

Many posters share the things that they do that shows the manifestation of their faith—like working with the poor, or the downtrodden etc. I have no quarrel with that, and many of the stories are moving. I don’t feel comfortable drawing attention to [my] self that way. (and I’m speaking only for myself)

If I shared with Liberal et al things like that I suppose that it would present a more balanced view of who I am IRL. Yet, it seems mildly unseemly for me to call attention to self in that way, and I’m reminded of the text that says when “making gifts of mercy one’s left hand shouldn’t know what the right hand is doing.”

In light of the more biting words in Liberal’s last post (which i took no offense over) I would simply ask they he recognize that all of us are only seeing a small part of who we really are IRL; and the real person is likely to be much different in 3D.

IOW, because I post in a narrow range here (and a couple of the reasons I’ve just posted) doesn’t mean that one should infer that IRL I lack compassion or balance.

I think for many it’s not that extreme, or for that reason. The basics and more are there. For myself studying the history of the Bible really opened my eyes. It became a matter of wanting to sift the truth from all the tradition. Recognizing the Bible for what it is or is not as far as spiritual authority is concerned does not change the value of Jesus’ words. Giving it too much authority can limit our quest for understanding unnecessarily.

Well, we share this in common as well. I’m sure we would come to some common ground on some things, and others not.

For my part, I have spent a great deal of time considering many of the same things. As a beginning, I don’t believe that faith can be intellectualized. As an example, I spent countless hours with Pascal’s Wager and it’s implication, and while interesting, I don’t think anyone finds God this way. In the Sermon on the Mount, Jesus gave us the answer: “Happy is the one conscious of his spiritual need.”

But once that happens—once you desire a relationship with the Creator—it is incumbent to learn about him. I struggled as to how a loving God could torture someone for 5 minutes, let alone for eternity, for 50 years of badness.

I struggled with the rank materialism of Christmas and it’s lack of biblical presence.

I struggled with the Trinity, and sought to understand the history of it.

I wanted to understand Christ, from Christ’s point of view, and how early Christians lived their lives and practiced their faith.

Through prayer, faith and study it became clear to me that the lives of the earliest Christians included using the holy writings as the basis of their faith, and that they [in a balanced way] saw them as the authority in making decisions.

must run. work calls. verbosity ensues.

[Liberal]

@the raindog

This is a tired SDMB mantra. What goes on in your heart, and what goes on in your brain, are not mutually exclusive.

Yes, they are. The brain is physical, but the heart is spiritual. The heart of a man is his essence — that which was created in the image of God, and the place where he stores what he treasures. The brain is a dying blob of jelly.

You seem to be under the mistaken impression that I am advocating illiteracy and idiocy. There is nothing wrong with being intelligent, other than the burden it places on a man when his faith is mired in pointless doubt over piddly shit. What I am saying is that intelligence and literacy are not prerequisites for faith, nor do they replace it, nor do they even lead to it, at least not directly. Faith is a gift from the Holy Spirit. If you want to make up some more stuff, attribute it to me, and argue against it, go ahead. But you’re wasting your time and mine.

[cosmosdan]

@the raindog

I have to admit that, in my view, it is indeed arrogance and hubris to rewrite the scriptures (or dismiss them wholesale) because one presumes to know better then Christ, Paul et al.

I can understand that. I’ve been accused of arrogance for having the nerve to question generations of accpeted Christian tradition. Let me offer a possible alternative.

It’s not necessarily assuming we know better than Jesus or Paul. {although Paul’s authority doesn’t impress me as much} It’s realizing that we can’t be completely sure how much of what Jesus said we actually have. We have real evidence about how the writings we have came to us and that they were handled and copied along the way and alterations made for various reasons. Knowing this we have to factor it into our concern for the truth. For me thats where James 1:5 and the others I mentioned come in.

It’s also a matter of taking personal responsibility for our unique relationship with God. Early on we may be mystified and need plenty of help and input. I know I did. I also found that I readily accepted the sincere opinions in the form of doctrine from good people without doing my own research. Later when I wanted answers based on my own study and soul searching I realized that there was no person I wanted to go to to declare what was true. I trusted my own heart and mind and my spiritual connection. I guess that might be called hubris, but there it is.

This is not [necessarily] true. Jesus humility and innocence as qualities that were needed to accept him, and it would surely seem that intellectualism is a stumbling block.

Yet, Paul, the most stalwart character in the NT, was highly educated. I am not, however.

Yet it seems clear to me from reading the bible (without regard to any personal theology) that historically servants of God read the holy writings. They were central to their lives. They were used as a reference, and as a guide that governed their decisions. In the NT, for example, there are hundreds of texts where a Christian was referencing a text from the OT----something that would be unclear to the casual reader. They read their ‘bible’, and they applied those things in their lives. Do you read something different, Liberal?

They read the scriptures to aide the spirit in teaching them and guiding them. They used the resources available to them at the time. Is it a mistake for modern man with more resources, to do the same? Should we seek and explore other writings called sacred?

This is a tired SDMB mantra. What goes on in your heart, and what goes on in your brain, are not mutually exclusive.

I agree.

All of us who identify as Christian use our hearts to establish a relationship with God. But all of us have our faith shaped and refined by the things we learn. I submit that the source of learning are many.

I agree again

For my part, I reject the intellectualism of this board and the litany of authorities that are cited. The greatest authority of all is “self.” I reject my own sensibilities and try to conform my beliefs and faith with the teachings of Christ et al, and find no compelling historical biblical basis---- or example—that allows me to make [my] “self” the arbiter as to what is right and wrong.

I have nothing left than but to use the teachings of Christ et al as my cite and authority. (as cosmosdan, in a most fascinating way put it, “As I read it we are to seek spiritual maturity until there is nothing left to subordinate…”)

If that makes me uppity, so be it.

I understand what you’re saying and I agree for the most part. I think it’s important for a spiritual seeker to be true to themselves and their personal relationship with God , rather than a religious tradition. We mature differently in different areas. We embrace beliefs and let go of previous beliefs. We clarify the details of our belief and learn about ourselves.

What amazes me about this journey, similar and yet unique for each of us, is that being true to ourselves means you and I can look at things differently, and still be on the right path for ourselves. We haven’t reached that point where we have nothing left to subordinate so we acknowledge our imperfect actions, knowledge, and understanding.

That being the case, we must to some degree rely on the self on this journey. We trust that God loves us and calls to us from within. We must search our hearts, and listen for spirit, but we must go forward and decide what we truly feel is right today, right now, trusting the spirit to teach us with new experience. We strive to let the spirit of love and unity, replace our fears and ego.

I hope that makes some sense.

[cosmosdan]

@the raindog

As to how this might apply to our “community” here, I have to remind myself that I am only seeing a small fraction of the person I perceive Liberal (as one example, and who, in any event, I like and respect ) to be. In my case, it is a flaw in my communication style that I may come across (on this MB) as having a bias in favor of the scholastic to the detriment of the “matters of the heart.” That flaw is amplified because I often perceive a strong board bias in the opposite direction. I often feel like a counterweight; something that I don’t experience anywhere else.

I know what you mean. In general I am pretty non mainstream in my spiritual beliefs, although I gather now that we would likely agree on the most important issues.
Here on the boards I find myself being treated as more of a traditionalist because I often step in to offer my perspective in a thread full of atheists.

As I’ve said before, it seems clear to me that bible ignorance is endemic, even among Christians.

I agree. It also seems to me that Christians often study select material rather than giving time and consideration to authors who don’t agree with them. One thing I’ve valued on the SDMB is having my beliefs challenged by intelligent literate people. It makes me think a lot more than reading what I already agree with. My beloved brother sent me a book called “Know the Truth” by a Christian author. It occurred to me how much hubris it took to publish a book with that title.

It is interesting that you used the word “balance.” I think that is something that many of us are really talking about. For my part, 10-20 minutes of study each day is an acceptable, balanced, routine for me. That leaves me more than ample time for me to live the principles I’m being taught. (and noting that I fall short of the glory of God each and every day)

Thats some good discipline. Right now I should be exercising.

For my part, I have spent a great deal of time considering many of the same things. As a beginning, I don’t believe that faith can be intellectualized. As an example, I spent countless hours with Pascal’s Wager and it’s implication, and while interesting, I don’t think anyone finds God this way. In the Sermon on the Mount, Jesus gave us the answer: “Happy is the one conscious of his spiritual need.”

Yep. I enjoyed the studying and solving what I thought of as spiritual mysteries. Then I’d go out and real life would remind me that it’s much more than that.

But once that happens—once you desire a relationship with the Creator—it is incumbent to learn about him. I struggled as to how a loving God could torture someone for 5 minutes, let alone for eternity, for 50 years of badness.

I struggled with the rank materialism of Christmas and it’s lack of biblical presence.

I struggled with the Trinity, and sought to understand the history of it.

I wanted to understand Christ, from Christ’s point of view, and how early Christians lived their lives and practiced their faith.

Through prayer, faith and study it became clear to me that the lives of the earliest Christians included using the holy writings as the basis of their faith, and that they [in a balanced way] saw them as the authority in making decisions.

I get it. I think that’s it too. It starts with a desire to know God. For me there were slightly different questions that I would try to answer once I decided to question more traditional beliefs.

I’m glad to have a clearer understanding of you. I honor your own journey. I think I understand how you came to your conclusions. I would only suggest that we can see the scripture differently and still revere it, and also that our spiritual life is a living growing thing. Something may have worked fine for the early Christians but now, 1000 + years later it may be time for a different approach. I do respect that it’s between you and God.

Thanks for sharing.

[Thudlow_Boink]

@cosmosdan

My beloved brother sent me a book called “Know the Truth” by a Christian author. It occurred to me how much hubris it took to publish a book with that title.

I’m not familiar with any book by that title, but I suspect it’s an allusion/quote of something Jesus said:

@John 8:31-32

To the Jews who had believed him, Jesus said, “If you hold to my teaching, you are really my disciples. Then you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free.”

Whether that mitigates the hubris or not, I don’t know.

[cosmosdan]

@Thudlow Boink

I’m not familiar with any book by that title, but I suspect it’s an allusion/quote of something Jesus said:Whether that mitigates the hubris or not, I don’t know.

It’s this
I know the passage. Maybe it’s just me. Given the total lack of agreement on exactly what the truth is just among Christians, it just struck me as hubris for the author to choose that title for what can only be his own perspective. Then I started to read the first chapter called “Authority” and was convinced it was hubris.

[raindog]

You seem to be under the mistaken impression that I am advocating illiteracy and idiocy. There is nothing wrong with being intelligent, other than the burden it places on a man when his faith is mired in pointless doubt over piddly shit. What I am saying is that intelligence and literacy are not prerequisites for faith, nor do they replace it, nor do they even lead to it, at least not directly.

On the contrary. I’m helping you to realize that you’re confusing humility with knowledge.

Just as the bible makes a distinction between wealth and greed, and cautions that not money, but the love of money, is the root of all evil, it makes a distinction between the wisdom of man (intellectualism) and the wisdom learned from God.

Wisdom being applied knowledge, it goes about identifying the type of knowledge that “preserves alive it’s owners.” (Ec 7:11-12)

There is nothing wrong with knowledge—nothing. The issue is what [unbridled] knowledge can do. It’s knowledge without humility. It’s knowledge that creates in it’s owner a sense of presumptuousness—as the Proverbs warn, “do not become wise in your own eyes.” (Pr 3:7)
No, the real question here is not one of knowledge, it’s one of humility. The fact is, the bible is chock full of people who not only had biblical knowledge, but people who were encouraged to acquire it, to seek it, to safeguard it, to cherish it, and to apply in their lives.

Here are some real live bible characters sharing their thoughts about the holy scriptures.
(Job 23:12) 12 I have not departed from the commands of his lips; I have treasured the words of his mouth more than my daily bread.
(1 John 5:3) 3 Loving God means keeping his commandments, and his commandments are not burdensome.
(Ps 119:105) 105 Your word is a lamp to my feet and a light for my path.
(Deu 6:4-9) 4 Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God, the LORD is one. [a] 5 Love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength. 6 These commandments that I give you today are to be upon your hearts. 7 Impress them on your children. Talk about them when you sit at home and when you walk along the road, when you lie down and when you get up. 8 Tie them as symbols on your hands and bind them on your foreheads. 9 Write them on the doorframes of your houses and on your gates.

There are literally hundreds of accounts in the bible that indicate that the holy writings were integral to Jewish and Christian life. There are hundreds of accounts that indicate that Jews and Christians saw the holy writings as vibrant, necessary, and useful in their day to day lives. No serious student of the bible, or history, would conclude that the holy writings were an incidental part of Christian life.

It appears one man’s piddly shit is another man’s treasure.

In every single account I can think of that depicts [successful] wisdom, it is born of applying knowledge gained from God. In every instance, it was necessary to subordinate personal sensibilities ans apply knowledge gained from the holy scriptures; in other words, demonstrate humility. That is the gist of the cite that Liberal referenced earlier; it wasn’t about knowledge, it was about humility.

[raindog]

The bible is not silent on other forms of knowledge, as it related to their faith. Universally, it treats mankind’s form of wisdom to be foolishness. The message is clear and unambiguous: Man made wisdom----no matter how sincere----is bound to fail. More importantly they earn God’s disfavor and [often] punishment. The bible consistently treats man’s knowledge (and subsequent wisdom) with derision.

Here are what some of the holy writings had to say about man made wisdom:

(Ps 33:10) The LORD brings the counsel of the nations to nothing; he frustrates the plans of the peoples.
(Jer 8:9) 9The wise men shall be put to shame; they shall be dismayed and taken; behold, they have rejected the word of the LORD, so what wisdom is in them?
(Isa 29:14) 14therefore, behold, I will again do wonderful things with this people, with wonder upon wonder; and the wisdom of their wise men shall perish, and the discernment of their discerning men shall be hidden."
(1 Cor 1:19-21) “…19For it is written: “I will destroy the wisdom of the wise; the intelligence of the intelligent I will frustrate.” 20Where is the wise man? Where is the scholar? Where is the philosopher of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world? 21For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not know him, God was pleased through the foolishness of what was preached to save those who believe…”
(1 Cor 3:19-21) 19For the wisdom of this world is folly with God. For it is written, “He catches the wise in their craftiness,” 20and again, “The Lord knows the thoughts of the wise, that they are futile.” 21So let no one boast in men. For all things are yours,
(1 Tim 6:20) 20O Timothy, guard the deposit entrusted to you. Avoid the irreverent babble and contradictions of what is falsely called “knowledge,”
(Col 2:8) 8See to it that no one takes you captive by philosophy and empty deceit, according to human tradition, according to the elemental spirits of the world, and not according to Christ.
Matt 15:7-9 7 You hypocrites! Well did Isaiah prophesy of you, when he said: 8 “‘This people honors me with their lips,but their heart is far from me; 9in vain do they worship me,teaching as doctrines the commandments of men.’”

There are dozens of other cites and accounts that universally treat man made knowledge and wisdom with something akin to contempt.

So to clarify Liberal, I never thought you were making a case for “illiteracy and idiocy.” On the contrary. I perceived you were getting irritated at the penchant of using the bible as my cite—enough so that it appeared to you that it had become an intellectual excercise.

Far from it. Like you, I believe that we are drawn by Holy Spirit. Like you, I believe that none us can get to God via our intellect.

Where we [apparently] part company is what we consider to be the source of our knowledge and [to the extent each of us find it] wisdom. This board doesn’t lack for knowledge—not at all. I see post after post where Christians and Atheists post some pretty impressive stuff. As I noted, authors of every stripe, eminent theologians, historians, wiki, and many personal insights.

Much of it is in direct contrast to what the bible says. When a Christian advances this, I often compare it to what I know from my reading of the bible. A favorite has been the [false] premise that the bible writers and Christians had a laissez-faire attitude towards the holy writings; toward what has become the bible.

My reading of the bible, and the lives it portrays, and historians from the 300 years after Christ’s death shows that the text at Hebrews 4:12 , “12For the word of God is living and active, sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing to the division of soul and of spirit, of joints and of marrow, and discerning the thoughts and intentions of the heart”, is a more accurate rendering of their sentiments.

So I find much of the stuff that is posted here to be factually incorrect. Frankly, much of it is substantially incorrect, in my view.When the poster is speaking for Christianity, I sometimes feel obliged to offer a counterpoint. (and in many cases invite the lurker to investigate for themselves)

As a point of reference,I find the ELCA policy statement Genghis Bob posted (Post #91) -----and in light of the texts I’ve cited in these 2 posts and the dozens more that would support them-----to be indefensible by any reasonable definition of Christianity. In my view, it is, indeed, “irreverent babble and contradictions of what is falsely called “knowledge.”” (1 Tim 6:20)

[cosmosdan]

@the raindog

The bible is not silent on other forms of knowledge, as it related to their faith. Universally, it treats mankind’s form of wisdom to be foolishness. The message is clear and unambiguous: Man made wisdom----no matter how sincere----is bound to fail. More importantly they earn God’s disfavor and [often] punishment. The bible consistently treats man’s knowledge (and subsequent wisdom) with derision.

I agree. The question is, how do we, mankind, discern the difference between man’s wisdom and God’s?

1 Cor 2:11For who among men knows the thoughts of a man except the man’s spirit within him? In the same way no one knows the thoughts of God except the Spirit of God. 12We have not received the spirit of the world but the Spirit who is from God, that we may understand what God has freely given us.

IMO no matter how much we cherish and revere any holy writings, we still must interpret them and try to understand what the author is trying to tell us, or what God is trying to tell us through the author. It seems clear to me that even sincere people who say they seek only to serve God, *do not * agree on what it all means. That undeniable fact must tell us something about the nature of the spiritual journey and the purpose of the holy writings.

What I find in the NT that I feel is not stressed enough is the need to commune with God through the Holt Spirit. To seek guidance, direction, and understanding by learning to listen for and trust that still small voice within. If we are to seek spiritual perfection we must surrender to the leadings of the spirit. If we don’t and instead try to intellectualize, or more often justify some compromise between our physical life and our spiritual life, we are doing what Jesus warned us against.
“Do not store up for yourselves treasures on earth, where moth and rust destroy, and where thieves break in and steal.”
For some this seems to open to individual whims. How do you know the spirit of God is guiding you? What about the guy who sincerely believes the spirit of God told him to bomb his enemies? I think we’ve been given a pretty easy standard in looking for the fruits of the spirit. It seems to me that Jesus stressed the fruits of the spirit as an outward reflection of what is going on within , much more than any doctrine. Illustrated in Mat 25 ‘Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did it to one of the least of these My brethren, you did it to Me.’

Being imperfect, we seek to understand the the scriptures with the help of the HS. That’s a process of surrendering our ego, our attachments, our personal preferences and cultural influences.

Where we [apparently] part company is what we consider to be the source of our knowledge and [to the extent each of us find it] wisdom. This board doesn’t lack for knowledge—not at all. I see post after post where Christians and Atheists post some pretty impressive stuff. As I noted, authors of every stripe, eminent theologians, historians, wiki, and many personal insights.

Much of it is in direct contrast to what the bible says. When a Christian advances this, I often compare it to what I know from my reading of the bible. A favorite has been the [false] premise that the bible writers and Christians had a laissez-faire attitude towards the holy writings; toward what has become the bible.

Correct me if I’m wrong but;
Your position and those like it seem to start with the assumption that it was God’s plan that we have one final authoritative compilation of writings. Even though I see that the scriptures were highly valued I don’t see anything to indicate that.
If I want to follow the spirit and not the traditions of men should I then assume that the all the men who copied the original texts {which we have none of right?} did so inspired by the HS? Should I disregard all the evidence of textual differences between the copies we have? Should I assume the the council of men who sifted through all the highly regarded writings to select certain books were not influenced by their own personal insights? Should I value the gospel of Thomas that is said to contain the words of Jesus? In my desire to answer some questions for myself i asked.

Does God love all mankind equally?
Of course.
That being accepted would God respond to any loving heart seeking the truth?
The holy writings from the Judea Christian tradition say so.
Should we then look at other religions from other cultures to try and get their perspective on a relationship with God? Should we see the fruits of the spirit in any person from any religion, or no religion, and recognize that as love drawn from the same well that we drawn from?
Again, The holy writings from the Judea Christian tradition say so.
I see no reason to not expect more to be revealed and written down as we spiritually mature and as sincere hearts seek the truth through the living spirit.

My reading of the bible, and the lives it portrays, and historians from the 300 years after Christ’s death shows that the text at Hebrews 4:12 , “12For the word of God is living and active, sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing to the division of soul and of spirit, of joints and of marrow, and discerning the thoughts and intentions of the heart”, is a more accurate rendering of their sentiments.

My own study on this subject has led me to believe that this passage and other like it often quoted concerning the written word, is actually referring to the living word within.

Romans 8: 26In the same way, the Spirit helps us in our weakness. We do not know what we ought to pray for, but the Spirit himself intercedes for us with groans that words cannot express. 27And he who searches our hearts knows the mind of the Spirit, because the Spirit intercedes for the saints in accordance with God’s will.

Who discerns the thoughts and intentions of the heart?
Passages like

John 15:7
If you remain in me and my words remain in you, ask whatever you wish, and it will be given you.
John 17:17
Sanctify them by the truth; your word is truth.
1 Thes 1: 4For we know, brothers loved by God, that he has chosen you, 5because our gospel came to you not simply with words, but also with power, with the Holy Spirit and with deep conviction.
1 Thes 2: 13And we also thank God continually because, when you received the word of God, which you heard from us, you accepted it not as the word of men, but as it actually is, the word of God, which is at work in you who believe.
1 Peter 1:23
For you have been born again, not of perishable seed, but of imperishable, through the living and enduring word of God.

all seem to indicate that the scriptures don’t just refer to the spoken or written word, but are also referring to the inner living word that transforms us.

So I find much of the stuff that is posted here to be factually incorrect. Frankly, much of it is substantially incorrect, in my view.When the poster is speaking for Christianity, I sometimes feel obliged to offer a counterpoint. (and in many cases invite the lurker to investigate for themselves)

As a point of reference,I find the ELCA policy statement Genghis Bob posted (Post #91) -----and in light of the texts I’ve cited in these 2 posts and the dozens more that would support them-----to be indefensible by any reasonable definition of Christianity. In my view, it is, indeed, “irreverent babble and contradictions of what is falsely called “knowledge.”” (1 Tim 6:20)

No matter what we believe about the written word and it’s intended purpose it is up to us as a people and as individuals to choose for ourselves what that means according to the best dictates of our own conscience. Our desire to know the truth and surrender ourselves to the living spirit, along with our unique personalities and influences direct how our journey unfolds.

In the end you are following your own personal insights as much as any other person. It’ can’t be any other way.

I find nothing in the ECLA policy statement to be out of line with the NT as I read iit, or to conflict with the teachings of Jesus in any way. You do and I respect your sincerity, but I hope you realize that it is based on your own interpretation of scripture and the level of importance and authority you give them.

So, when someone says. “I’m following the word of God as presented in the Bible”
it can only mean they are following their own interpretation of the word of God as best they can. Men will be completely sincere and still disagree. We are left to decide what that means about the Bible and our relationship with God through the Holy Spirit.

[Blue_Mood]

@Mosier

I’d like to meet a “real” Christian sometime, but I think the Christian doctrine might actually be too far from human nature for anyone to be able to follow.

Try starting here:
http://www.quaker.org.uk/Templates/Internal.asp?NodeID=89744&int1stParentNodeID=89726&int2ndParentNodeID=89841&int3rdParentNodeID=89744

[Blue_Mood]

(Submitted previous post too early).
Quakers are truly loving, open-minded, and non-judgmental. Pacifism is not just a philosophy but a way of life, with non-violent conflict resolution being the goal. While not every Quaker is a Christian, the majority of those that are would assuredly fulfill your requirements.

[Siam_Sam]

@Blue Mood

(Submitted previous post too early).
Quakers are truly loving, open-minded, and non-judgmental.

Wasn’t Nixon a Quaker?