So all each of you are really saying is “It’s a tough issue to solve”. I don’t think many would disagree. I’m just spitballing possible solutions. If a binary “limited” and “unlimited” class based on hormones alone won’t work, how about a 3 tier approach:
“scientifically” female with baseline testosterone levels > X, “scientifically” female with testosterone < X and all others. For simplicity sake call it “Female limited division”, “female unlimited division” and “Open division”. One can compete in any level at or higher than their genetic qualifications, but not in a lower division.
The height argument is a poor analogy. Taller people tend to excel in different sports than shorter people, for sure, but this is not about which sports one is predisposed to excel in, it’s about whom one can/should compete against.
You probably wouldn’t have given me the benefit of the doubt if you had known that I’m not a “her” but a “him”.
So, stating that that this person isn’t biologically female when she isn’t biologically female denigrates her? How so?
And how “on the basis of gender” would make things worst than on any other basis? Because you say so?
So, I should refrain to mention her condition on a message board, when her condition is discussed all over the place and makes the headlines?
Really? How do you know what I think and what are my motivations? Did I express such a desire or are you just making it up because it allows you to depict me as a bad person?
Really? Did I use any slur? If not, how is that the equivalent?
I mentioned the real situation of this person, which is at the center of a controversy. The equivalent would rather be me saying that a black person has more melanin than a white person, and you deciding that this statement is utterly offensive because nobody should ever mention melanin.
And what about my friend request to not have his religion denigrated, for instance? What if my friend has a mental condition and telling him that he isn’t “Chad Thundernut” plunges him into depression? Who made you king who can decide which groups can have their wishes respected to the extent of refusing to acknowledge reality and which groups can’t expect such? Which person personal issues should be danced around and which other issues shouldn’t?
The problem of course is that you say that only because you hate French people and want to makes me appear as an evil person because I’m French.
Really? So, according to you she’s absolutely, 100% biologically female? That’s your view based on what has been published about this issue? For instance people writing that she’s intersexed are wrong? If she was claiming instead to be male, would you also state that everything we know about him tells us that his gender is male, or would you argue that she’s in fact female? Which would be your position?
Because either you’re ready to deny that a person belongs to the gender he proclaims he belongs (Semanya claiming “I’m male” and you saying “she’s in reality a female, everything we know tell us that”) or you’re stating that nothing we know in fact matters wrt gender determination except which gender she wants to identify with (in which case your “everything we know” is just a disingenuous argument because you don’t care what we know).
The names are not given in the paper. Quite correctly. It is entirely possible that none of them are currently operating at that distances. I doubt it, I don’t think such a claim is credible but would be swayed by evidence. What is not in doubt is that other athletes previously have been in precisely this position (Maria José Martínez-Patiño, Santhi Soundarajan, Dutee Chand) and it is not credible that this ruling will not affect female athletes in the future.
You could have saved yourself a lot of trouble and just read my very first sentence in the thread. Still, it only seems to be you that is struggling with it so I’ll live with that.
Not random at all, it is mirroring the words of the IAAF in the article you link to when they talk about the reasons why they are pursuing this
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Make of that what you will, if you are in any doubt as to my thoughts on Semenya then just ask, she is an incredible athlete, hard-working, dedicated and hugely talented.
Is the word “classification” causing you problems? are you not familiar with the concept? I don’t know what else to tell you. Sporting competition can be divided into different classifications, categories, division, grade, group, rank, section, tier, kind…stop me when your are familiar with any of these terms.
But in any case, and I feel I’m really labouring the point here, anyone is allowed to swim against Phelps if they are good enough, women, men, DSD, intersex, trans, etc… etc. Phelps is *not *free to swim against women, juniors etc. I struggling to think of a simpler way to express this.
*What *am I doing exactly? *what *do you think my motivation is? If you have a problem don’t be a coward about it. Say what you think and risk being corrected or, the option you seem most comfortable with, continue to bask in your ignorance. Safe in the knowledge that that way, you can never be wrong.
I can’t “force” a discussion with you. Don’t be a child. I’m not forcing your fingers on the keys. You are happy to criticise the ruling but you have no interest in the wider implications? Fine. That’s helpful. I guess others will take it from here.
Ok, so, is your argument that Semenya is biologically objectively and indisputably female?
As I already asked to someone else : if Semenya was classifying himself as male, or refused the binary system and stated to be neither male nor female, would you argue that regardless of what she says, she’s female?
In other words, are you arguing that I’m wrong saying that she isn’t biologically a female because she’s in fact biologically a female according to you, or are you arguing that biology doesn’t matter in any way, and I’m wrong because even if biology doesn’t align with her preference, mentioning biological reality is in itself offensive?
Also : do you think that there are people whose biological gender is ambiguous and doesn’t fit neatly in a male/female binary classification, or do you deny it? If you don’t deny it, how do you justify wanting to prevent people from discussing this reality?
I suspect that this is what we will see in time. In the event of a ruling that says medical intervention cannot be required I don’t see how something of this nature can be avoided.
Careful with your descriptions there though, “limited”, “unlimited” , “division” “level” might be unnecessarily confusing for some.
Well, I picked height because it’s one of the most obvious difference between men and women. Let’s assume in matter in this sport, for instance, why wouldn’t categories in basket ball be based on height?
Having picked an example that doesn’t necessarily matter in all sports, doesn’t nullify my original argument. Testosterone level obviously isn’t the only physical difference between men and women and neither it is the only thing that matters in sports anymore than height. Basing categories solely on it can’t possibly make up for all the differences in performances between men and women.
The actual, factual answer to the question is that she’s intersex and identifies as female. That’s uncontroversial as a matter of fact.
That’s not hugely relevant, though. What’s relevant is whether she meets the criteria to compete in women’s athletics, whether the criteria should allow intersex people to compete in women’s athletics, and whether it’s fair to her or others to allow her to compete.
To me, the answer is obvious - she should not be allowed to compete, it should be a necessary but not sufficient condition to compete in women’s sport to have xx chromosones, and her career accomplishments should not be counted as it’s unfair to other competitors who do meet (what should be) the requirements to have to compete against her.
None of which has anything to do with her gender or pronouns (or race, as some people incredibly seem to think it is).
As for the argument that she didn’t know she was intersex, that’s almost certainly bullshit. She was tested a decade ago by the international organisation, and probably as soon as she turned professional by the national one. She’s known she’s had an unfair advantage for years.
It’s not enough to just say “you know that”; your previous posts were suggesting it is as simple as XX or XY to determine whether someone competes in the male or female division.
If you’re saying now you understand why that distinction doesn’t work, even if you think it’s rare, that’s conceding the point.
For anyone interested in a look into this topic from an expert, this is absolutely in Rachel McKinnon’s wheelhouse. Rachel McKinnon is a transwoman, a world-class cyclist, and something of an expert on issues dealing with testosterone and fairness.
That’s a “I don’t give a shit if Caster is or isn’t a female”. Her right to be labeled female is immaterial to whether or not her inclusion in these competitions upsets the concept of having those competitions in the first place.
I don’t understand how you draw that conclusion. IMHO someone who is has XY sex chromosomes is male, no matter the exterior appearance. And someone who has XX sex chromosomes is a woman, no matter how much testosterone she naturally produces.
That’s basic biology.
AFAIAA Semenya has XX sex chromosomes and is thus a woman; if that is the case then that should be the end of the matter.
Which would preclude any trans athletes competing in women’s categories and thus another can of worms is opened.
I don’t think any of us know that for certain and the wording of the ruling and challenges made by Semenya make no sense if she was XX seeing as in that case she would not be caught by these regulations.
In any case, such a distinction would only be the end of one matter for one athlete and the start of another for many others.
Aye, that’s just what’s needed to add some clarity to this discussion, a self-serving professor of gender studies sharing her insights on endocrinology and sports science. I’ll give that a LOL if you don’t mind, budget player cadet.
She’s not a world class cyclist, either, FYI - she’s an amateur athlete who competes at master level. Shouldn’t be mentioned in the same breath as Caster Semenya for a variety of reasons.
Not really, that’s a ruling that needs to be made. Until such time as we can give transwomen an actually female body rather than one that approximates the appearence of one, they shouldn’t be treated as biologically female.
Whether they should compete as male or in a separate competition for trans and/or intersex people is another question, I’d say the latter is preferable but as I’m neither trans nor an athletics association, my view is probably not that relevant here.
HOW is she intersex, though? I’ve never seen a reliable source on that. I’ve heard it said she has XY chromosomes, that she has XX chromosomes but has vestigial testicles, that she’s just manly, that she has male genitals, female genitals, and on and on, and any number of other claims.