Well hey, she’s contributed two more peer-reviewed papers to this discussion than you have, so by all means, do play catch-up. 
She was literally a world champion in 2018. Rachel McKinnon becomes first transgender woman to win track world title | Cycling Weekly
People care about wishes they can understand and empathise with. The great majority of men will be offended if you deliberately refer to them as ‘she’, and the great majority of women will be offended if deliberately referred to as ‘he’. Hence the reaction you are getting. Doesn’t mean you can’t discuss the subject, but it’s only going to distract from your message if you say things most people find offensive.
Your rule would also allow people with this condition to compete in women’s events:
I can’t really imagine she doesn’t know this. Anyone will object to being misgendered, because being misgendered sucks. It sucks more for trans folks, for myriad reasons, but it’s far less controversially awful for ciswomen (like Caster Semenya).
The full information isn’t public, but the ruling that affects her is narrowly defined to affect only those who are legally female and have XY chromosones (if I understand it correctly). So it’s reasonable to assume that those things are true about her, else she wouldn’t be affexted by this ruling.
I think there is a solution.
Get rid of gendered segmentation of sports.
Sure, some women will have a harder time competing.
But some men will lose to women, and that’s the real reason that sports are gendered. To protect men’s egos.
I am under the impression that one of the problems is, there’s no way, or at least no easy way, to tell if the testosterone levels are natural or artificial.
Keep in mind that separate events based on particular physical conditions not related to gender already exist in some events; the obvious examples are weight classes in, for example, boxing and wrestling.
Sure, but you understand the level that is at right? Age group racing in your late 30s early 40s is the apex of amateur sport, it’s exceptional in everyday terms, but it’s nowhere near world class. That is a descriptor one would use for an athlete like Caster Semenya.
It’s important to grasp the difference in levels, as when Rachel Mckinnon enters the track sprint, the most polarised event of any cycling discipline in terms of absolute power, and beats 130 lb women despite her having no history of elite performance in cycling pre-transition, we can all afford to take a view on that as ultimately there’s not a great deal on the line. [Guarantee this was the first time in history that the women’s world masters track sprint, 35-44 yo, received a sentence of coverage in the mainstream media].
For true world class performance, like the matter at hand - it’s different gravy. Careers are on the line, the Olympics is the pinnacle of sporting endeavour with huge sphere of interest, and the regulations the IOC codify reach all the way down to grassroots sport.
LOL. They’re gendered because, in any sport that requires strength and speed to perform at a high level, grown women get beaten by adolescent boys. Routinely. See, whenever the US.National Women’s Soccer Team or Basketball Teams play men, they usually play something around a U-15 men’s team. Or compare track and field marks for elite high school boys vs women’s Olympic marks.
So equestrian sports, shooting sports that are static, auto racing and yachting (in theory)----and I’m missing a few others----wouldn’t suffer by being open to all, but every other sport would. I’ll grant you ultralongdistance swimming as one where women beat men.
And now for some cites: 2014 study on serum androgen levels in elite female athletes: https://academic.oup.com/jcem/article/99/11/4328/2836760 Highlight there is 99th percentile T concentration is 3.08 nmol/L. 10 is cited to be the threshold for competition eligibility. Has it been stated was Semenya’s concentration is? It’s over 10, right?
Testosterone limits for female athletes based on 'flawed' research | ScienceDaily This is a helpful press release concerning a paper from U Colorado at Boulder, bashing a paper that claimed greater testosterone levels lead to increased female athletic performance. I don’t make any critiques on the Colorado paper; I linked it for its statement s about testosterone levels in men versus women:
So, if Semenya has a testosterone blood concentration above 10 nmol/L----and she should, otherwise why would this whole imbroglio have come up—she’s over 3 times the 99th percentile female elite athlete, over 6 times the concentration listed for women in that quote, and on par with a middle-age man. No wonder she does well.
To compete with her, as is, other women not having a vestigial teste, (or whatever else explains the giant free testosterone and unfortunate intersex comments attributed to track and field officials when describing her) within them, would have to dope with exogenous testosterone to play on an equal playing field with Ms. Semenya. All of them. Or track and field can ask that this woman lower her testosterone to a level still above the 99th percentile of elite female athletes, if she wishes to compete against other women.
We don’t know her concentration, but it’s under 10nmol/L. That was the old competition limit, they changed the concentration limit to 5nmol/L in the competitions she participates in to exclude her.
Ok, then halve the percentage advantage she has over all other women. It’s still substantial even if it’s 5/3 or 5/1.67 that of other elite female athletes. Point still holds. Even if she lowers it to 5, it’s still a gigantic advantage.
What are the effects of administering sufficient androgen antagonists to lower her free test to get under 5? Besides her times rising, of course.
We do not have much evidence on the effects of androgen agonists, except in men with prostate issues and a tiny bit of evidence on post-menopausal women. This is a known problem for trans women (we’re essentially flying blind), but it’s also a problem here because the honest answer is we simply do not know what effects or side effects it may have.
…if this is an actual, factual, uncontroversial answer, then you should have no problem providing a cite.
…so thats a “Michael Phelps should not have been allowed to swim with other men because his inclusion on those competitions upsets the concept of having those competitions in the first place.”
Gotcha.
…so this is a long-winded way of telling me you can’t provide a cite for your assertion?
…so we’ve gone from “definitely” to “probably.”
Uh huh.
I’m not going to read every post in this thread just because you’ve invented new jargon that you expect everyone to understand.
And why is it, do you think, the IAAF randomly dropped it into the “conversation?” Why did you choose to mirror those words, when you could have chosen not to mirror them at all?
Then perhaps you should stop mirroring words that make the implication otherwise.
Well, yeah. Sporting competition can be divided into **lots **of different classifications, categories, division, grade, group, rank, section, tiers. So what specific classifications are you talking about?
Cite please?
You are Just Asking Questions. “The purpose of this argument method is to keep asking leading questions to attempt to influence spectators’ views, regardless of whatever answers are given.”
LOL.
Your proposal is the only way to not have to draw a bright line in a murky grey area, which is always going to leave someone just on the other side of that line and sore about it. But keep in mind that of the 56 men who competed in the 2016 Olympic 800m, the worst time of them all (from the athlete representing the Refugee team) was still about a second faster than Semenya’s personal best.
The real reason for gendered sports is to let women have a chance in the limelight. I am the father of a 16 year old daughter who is on the tennis team. I’m a tennis nut, and I trained her from the moment she could pick up a racquet. I am proud of her as can be, and I love going to her meets. But I know that if she were forced to compete for spots on a non-gendered team, she would simply not make the cut. My assessment from watching both teams practice, and seeing her compete against her older brother (who was on the boy’s team), is that in such a non-gendered scenario, the #1 player on the girls’ team (which is not my daughter) would have a shot at making the bottom ranks of the boys’ team. No one else would have the proverbial snowball’s chance in hell, and that includes my daughter. That’s not something I want to see happen.
Here’s an article (from a runners’ website) that undertakes to correct what the author feels is widespread misunderstanding (certainly present in this thread):
What No One Is Telling You About Caster Semenya: She Has XY Chromosomes
It’s going to be difficult to give you the cites you want (though I tried to provide a few, upthread), when the parties hide behind medical privacy to avoid disclosing relevant information about her medical condition, and how it differs from those of other elite female track athletes.
AFAIK, we don’t know her exact free testosterone level, her sex chromosome genotype, whether she indeed has any vestigial or functioning male sexual organs, or other answers that might help us form an opinion as to whether Ms. Semenya should compete alongside other women in track. Those would be nice to have.
All we can do is make inferences from the information made public, and the actions of the various regulatory bodies that have ruled on her case. Those inferences suggest she has a ridiculously high level of testosterone compared to her peers, and a likely cause of that is the presence, through some pathological medical condition, of some testosterone secreting tissue within her that other women don’t possess.