Are there states that actually ban parents from taking their children into liquor stores?
(sorry for disappeared, posted right before work)
I can answer some of these for my store at least.
For one thing, a parent with a child is not turned away. All members of the party are IDed, but children are exempt. This is because it’s Shaws, a grocery store that happens to sell alcohol.
Depending on the situation, a supervisor can override some of the requirements (i.e., if they are obviously old enough, they might let it slide).
As for the aside on credit cards, we don’t ask for ID, or even compare signatures… which rather bugs me, but i am a bagger, not a cashier.
I’m 49 and got carded last week buying a six pack of beer. No problem, I used to sell liquor and can understand the store’s nweed to cover themselves against citations for illegal sales. I do not sign my debit card either. When I scan it myself as a debit card, I’m never asked for ID, as I get to use my PIN. If I have to present it to the clerk, I present my driver’s license for ID. It doesn’t make any sense to engage in drama with the clerk, they’re just doing a job, and it would cost me extra time to complain. I’m not the type to go through life making a mountain out of a molehill. Life’s too short and I just want to enjoy what I have of it.
Well, I can’t give you a cite, and your example is a stretch, but the gist is correct. If it seemed clear that it was a parent-child situation, I’d make the sale, but if it’s, say, a group of youngish people, yes, I ID all of them. I MUST, as per company policy on “implied knowledge” (I believe that’s the term) - if multiple people are looking at and conversing about the alcohol, I must assume that they are all going to consume it, and cannot allow an underage person to do so. This issue causes me more shit than any other at work - I’m constantly called a racist, fat fuck, told to go fuck my mother, etcetera.
I couldn’t give two fat fucks if a 19-year-old drinks, but I will NOT risk fines from the state and termination from my job. ABC (Alcoholic Beverage Control, or something like that) are AGGRESSIVELY stinging stores in my area, and I have PASSED state stings more than once.
Joe
The mileage varies by jurisdiction. In Spain, they are supposed to verify:
- your signature against the signature in the back of the card or on a government-issued picture ID
- the name on the card against the name on the ID
- your face against the picture on the ID.
Just sayin’, in case someone here feels “invaded” while on vacation over here.
Huh? What happens if you’ve gone to the supermarket with your toddler? Does that mean the supermarket won’t sell you booze? Blimey.
As a bartender for several years…if I have a moment’s doubt that somebody in, say, a party of six people MIGHT be underage, I card them all.
Even if it’s blatantly obvious that five out of six of them are over thirty.
The reasons are multiple.
a.) If four of them are women, and I only card one out of four of 'em, the other three may get pissed off. (This happens in parties of guys too, but not nearly to the same extent.)
b.) It’s a lot quicker and easier to say, “Can I see your ID’s” to a group than to specify which person’s ID I actually want to see. “Can I see the young brunette’s ID?” doesn’t go over so well with the older brunette woman I’m talking to.
c.) Texas law states that even if you’re eighty years old, you have to have proof of age in order to buy alcohol…so even if my grandmother walked into my bar, unless I’m willing to vouch for her and go to jail for her if she can’t prove her age, I can’t serve her. You HAVE to carry your state-issued ID in order to drink alcohol.
d.) Ergo, even if you’re forty-six and I’m really after the ID of your twenty-eight-year old co-worker, if you don’t have your own ID also I’ve got no choice but to refuse service.
e.) This isn’t fun.
Some people get very upset. Absurdly so. I’ve been cursed out for it.
Not my problem. If you’re old enough to be a “given,” you should have legal ID on you. For fuck’s sake. I don’t write the laws. I just get penalized if I don’t follow them.
I can’t find Wegmans or TOPS store policy on the web. But you can read this posting on the Ithaca Journal forum
http://forums.theithacajournal.com/viewtopic.php?p=2353&sid=3ecf7a82b72f5fde87248b99d99b0b4c
[scroll down a bit to the post by Porky with the subject “Wegmans Alcohol Policy”]
There’s also this “Dear Uncle Ezra” [the Cornell advice and Q&A forum]:
http://ezra.cornell.edu/posting.php?timestamp=1019102400#question4
Note that the column is from 2002. Store policy now is to card everyone, regardless of how old they look.
If you still don’t believe me, I invite you to come down to Ithaca with your kids. I’ll take you to Wegmans and you can try to buy a six-pack.
New York state law pretty much limits supermarkets to selling beer or other low-alcohol drinks. For wine and stronger spirits, you’ll have to go to a separate liquor store. The one I usually go to has never carded me.
No, they check IDs because it’s a crime to sell alcohol to someone under 21 in the US. They aren’t assuming you’re a criminal, they’re keeping themselves free of criminal behavior.
I can’t believe it bothers people. (I find it amusing, being well over age, but it makes sense that the store/restaurant owners want to CYA).
Just a wild ass guess, but if the kid is in a stroller, the adults appear to be between say 21 and 40, and either the female or male is carying a diaper bag, I am going to go out on a limb and say that it is probably their parent and they are probably not buying the wine for the kid.
So my 2 year old does not have ID what then?
Aserrann How do you know they are the children of the adults in front of you if you don’t demand a birth certificate to compare to the adults ID?
All I can say is thank OG I live in California where at least some sanity still exists as it applies to acohol sales.
FTR I have no problem showing my ID if asked. Hasen’t happened in several years, but I got no problem with it.
The reason the whole “we ID everyone” idea is so annoying is that it’s part of the whole dumbing down of the whole world. Sorry, but at some point, you have to hire employees who can think and make rational decisions. It’s idiotic expect heavy-handed policies to cover your ass.
It’s a waste of time and insulting to the clerk’s intelligence to force him or her to ask for someone’s ID when that person is clearly many years over the legal limit. It’s basically saying “We don’t trust our employees; they’re clearly morons who can’t tell the difference between someone who might be under age and a 65 year old grandmother.”
I put these kind of rules in the same category as “no tolerance” rules at schools and such. Like “no knives” at an elementary school getting some 6 year expelled because his mother put a butter knife in his lunch box - it’s just stupid. At some point you have to acknowledge that the world isn’t black and white, and as scary as it might seem, you have to allow people some personal responsibility.
Honestly, sometimes being an American is just embarassing. More often than not, lately.
I’m sure no one is taking it to such extreme lengths, but if the kid is around 12 or above, I wouldn’t be too sure. There are criminals in this world that do buy liquor for underage kids, how am I supposed to know its not you?
While I never bought alcohol like this, I’ve gotten into tons of rated R movies by having random strangers pretend to be my parents.
I don’t know who you have a problem with on this issue, but I can’t blame stores for refusing sales on this one. The law makes it illegal for them to sell to minors or anyone buying alcohol for minors. I don’t see any other way for them to accomplish this other than to deny sales to adults who actually have minors standing next to them. If you have another way I’d like to hear it.
I could never get away with being so pretentious, I’m over 28 years old and look like this.
Sorry (wrong button), I look like this.
Well you see now you are wavering. Earlier in this thread you said
when I pointed out just how stupid a policy that is now you start talking about extreme lengths. I don’t know how it is in your neck of the woods, but parents quite often take their kids to the market in California. So what I posted was not an extreme case, but an everyday occurrence. Now either it is a hard and fast rule or it isn’t. Which is it? Now if it is law / policy that no adult with a minor can buy alcohol, then you have to admit an adult with a babe in arms is going to think that this is a pretty stupid law / policy. What does an adult with a babe in arms do if they want to buy a bottle of wine to go with dinner? Leave the kid in the car? Won’t somebody think of the children?
Based on the responses to my last post, I feel that this law / policy is not nearly as iron clad as people wanted me to believe at first. I am putting this law / policy into the same category as zero tolerance rules. Meaning that zero tolerance = zero brains.
As far as your comment that a minor gets undercover officer to buy booze. You would have to prove in court that the clerk observed the transaction between the officer and the kid. If there was no observation a first year law student could kick the DA’s ass in court. BTW in California a minor having an adult buy booze would be illegal, but we aren’t assholes about it.
Ok, I just quizzed my wife, who worked at a liquor store last year, on some of the rules. Please keep in mind that the store she worked in is based in Jersey, and had a reputation as being the most hard-assed place you would ever find when it comes to the rules:
[ul]
[li]A mother comes in the store with her 19 son. She may buy alcohol, but she must carry it out the the car. The son cannot touch the bottles.[/li][li]If a group of friends (non-family) go into the store, and only one makes a purchase, all can still be ID’d. If just one person is under 21, then no sale.[/li][li]Taking it even further, if you go in to buy beer, and the store clerk knows that there is a non-family member under 21 outside in the car, the sale can be denied.[/li][/ul]
It drives me insane. I grew up in a culture where, although the drinking age was legally 18, nobody cares. I started going to bars when I was 16 (with the full knowledge and permission of my parents, FTR - I was encouraged to drink wine at home with them before that, even) and was never denied admission to a bar, ever. In fact, the first time I was ever carded was when I went to a different province.
Now that I live in PA, it’s way different. I am carded upon entry to every single bar and on every occasion I buy alcohol, in a store or in a restaurant, no matter who I am with (even my mom). Not only that, but they won’t accept my driver’s license, since it’s not a US license. It’s passport or nothing, and I hate having to carry it around all the time.
The ironic bit is that I rarely drank at home and drank to excess maybe once or twice up to the age of 23. Since I’ve moved to PA, I drink a lot more, a lot more frequently.
What I meant by “no one is taking it to such extreme lengths” is that no one is denying sales to adults with toddlers. Only adults with minors that look old enough to ask a total stranger to buy them liquor are being sent away. At least that is what I hope they are doing in Terminus Est’s case. If the police are giving out fines to parents who buy alcohol with a toddler then I agree that is stupid. If the police aren’t giving out fines, but the stores are sending way such parents then that is even more stupid.
When you made your first statement it did not sound like you were only talking about parents with toddlers. It sounded like you were also upset that parents with older kids (like between the ages of 12-18) were being sent away.
So what are you upset about? The actual law, the way it is being enforced by the government, or the way it is being enforce by the stores? While I am still unsure (though I highly doubt it) that parents with toddlers are being sent away, would you be upset if a parent with a 12 or a 16 year old got sent away?
I don’t know how the law is actually written, but that does not really matter. What matters is what other liquor stores are being fined for. This also gives us clue as to how judges are interpreting the laws. A law saying “no adult can buy for a minor” might be interpreted to mean that everyone buying alcohol with a minor gets a fine or it can only apply to cases where the minor has given money to the adult and then the purchase gets made. That is why we have to look out to see how other stores are getting fined and what gets by in court. We find out by special bulletins that get sent to liquor store owners here in Brooklyn.
I also should point out that here in New York City adults with minors in their group are allowed to buy alcohol. The minors can’t pay for or touch the bottle. I was only explaining the policy in Terminus Est’s store, that since people buy for minors, people with minors next to them have to get turned down. My guess is that stores where **Terminus Est ** is from are getting in trouble for selling to minors when they sold alcohol to adults who were just making purchases within the company of minors. If no one is getting in trouble then I can’t imagine why anyone would make such a policy since it would cost the store more money.
I know Terminus Est’s store is also in New York State, but maybe the law is different for supermarkets or in Ithaca somehow. I’m not that sure about this. All I know is that I have yet to hear about liquor stores getting fines from selling to adults with minors in their group. If no one is getting fined then there is no reason for us or any store for that matter to be strict about it. Unless, that is, you disagree with it for moral reasons.
I am not a lawyer, but our store got the news that other stores were getting fines for this even without seeing the transaction. Until we get word that these fines don’t hold up in court we have to be extra cautious. Can you really blame us? Why would we want to risk getting a serious fine?
On the rare occasions my mom went to a state store (to get a gift for someone else) and took me with she was never questioned about having a kid (even when I was a teenager) with her or had a sale refused because I was carrying a bottle or helping her find stuff.