If a pregnant woman's behavior leads to a miscarriage, what should the punishment be?

Great Debates
1

A recent thread asked about punishments for abortions. What is a pregnant woman drinks, takes drugs, falls downstairs, doesn’t see a doctor, or even expresses the idea that she would like to have an abortion, and then miscarries. Should she be punished for murder? Manslaughter?

I ask because an anti-abortionist gave a pregnant friend of mine a really hard time when she scheduled an appointment to have an abortion, but dismissed her miscarriage after she made the appointment and before she kept it as “an act of God.”

2

I guess it would depend…was she hunting for her food when she did this…?

sorry couldn’t resists :smiley:

3

Since no one who thinks abortion is the moral equivalent to murder was willing to answer the questions I posed in this thread, I doubt you’re going to get an answer here, either. I agree with your premise, though; for consistency, it should be considered equivalent to manslaughter.

Next time I am arguing with one of these “abortion is murder” extremists, I am going to ask the questions I posed, along with the question you posed. I predict it will shut them up pretty quick.

4

Let me clarify - I know several people did attempt to answer the questions, but I am assuming from the answer that they don’t think abortion is the moral equivalent of murder. I wasn’t slamming the people who did answer.

5

Well, since I’m one of those “I think abortion is murder” types, I’ll jump in here and see what happens. But first I want to ask my own questions.

This borders on a very slippery slope. (The pro abortion crowd blasts the pro life crowd due to the slippery slope of incrementalism. This is pro abortion’s slippery slope.)

All sorts of things come into play here. (Ignoring the moral implications, abortion is legal so obviously there is no legally imposed punishment for having an abortion.) You asked the paraphrased question, “what if the woman miscarries due to her actions that jeopardize the fetus?”

Let’s ask the question from the other side. “What if another person commits an act that causes a woman to miscarry?” These actions can take many forms. If a man shoots and kills his pregnant exwife is he guilty of double homicide? According to some courts, yes.

What then, if he merely wounds the woman or beats the woman and causes the miscarriage? Has he still committed a homicide? Or is a possible homicide charge attached to the fetus dependent upon the mother’s survival?

Is a driver guilty of homicide if he causes an accident that induces a miscarriage? What if the driver is legal in all respects, except for causing the accident? (The accident is a result of a traffic violation) What if the driver is driving illegally? (No license, DUI, etc.)

I’ve heard many people argue that the 3rd party should be charged with a homicide if the would-be mother supports the charge. (This is one of the most ludicrous things that I’ve ever heard. We ignore any LEGAL standard for murder and charge someone based solely on another’s wishes.)

Anyway, maybe this will liven up the thread. After a few responses I’ll jump back with my opinions. (Good thread topic, Annie!)

6

Thanks SouthernStyle.

Quite a while back, in my own hometown, a man who was quite upset that his pregnant girlfried wouldn’t have an abortion started a fire in the rooming house where she lived. She died, along with her fetus and five other innocent people. He was charged with six counts of murder. This is a slippery topic.

7

This is one of the arguments I use to explain why I believe abortion should remain legal. If it was made illegal, then you would either be endorsing do-it-yourself abortion methods (if you only punished the doctors) or you would have to investigate ‘suspicious’ miscarriages (if you punished the woman as well).

8

Southern Style, if you caused the death of the fetus in the State of Michigan by the methods you describe, the standard is “viability”. so, in most cases, no, the person wouldn’t be prosecuted.

And, actually, what you’re posting about ** is ** happening to some degree in some areas.

In one state (Virginia maybe? I caught the newscast after they identified where), a hospital, trying to reduce the number of babies born addicted to cocaine, is testing the urine of “suspect” pregnant moms for cocaine and giving the results to the cops, who then arrest mom for endangering a child, and put her in jail. Talk about a slippery slope. We all want to reduce the numbers of babies born addicted, but can we even COUNT the ways this is wrong? (from wrongful seizure of evidence to violation of the doctor’s patient confidentiality, etc etc etc.)

9

I’m on the ACLU mailing list, and agree with most of their speil except they don’t care about guns and are pro-choice.

They were very upset about a bill that made murdering a fetus a federal crime. Not getting an abortion mind you – some third party coming in and murdering the fetus without the mother’s concent.

I don’t think it became law, but I found them to be very nutso with their stance.

10

Wring is right on. It works the same way in Illinois as well. If you cause a mother to miscarry after viability (IIRC 6 months into the pregnancy) you can be brought to court for anything from involuntary manslaughter (an accident) to first degree murder (if it was a premeditated attack).

Likewise, a woman cannot get an abortion that late in a pregnancy except under EXTREME circumstances (i.e. life threatening). In this case they’d still almost certainly try to deliver the baby (or C-Section) unless there were some extremely good reasons why that could not be done.

Also as Wring has pointed out there have been cases where the mother is arrested for endangering her unborn child. IIRC this will be a case before the Supreme Court this year.

This is definitely one of the tougher issues (aasuming the mother has decided to keep the child and we’re well into viability of the baby). On the one hand it can easily be argued that this amounts to child abuse (or something like it). If a mother gave her kid vodka in its baby bottle the mother would almost certainly be arrested and have the child removed from her custody. This doesn’t differ from the mother taking cocaine or heavily drinking while pregnant (what she consumes the baby consumes). In addition society as a whole can make a legitimate claim of concern here that affords it the right to poke its collective nose in her business to some extent.

On the flip side how could penalties against mothers possibly be enforced short of some sort of police state? It is ok for mothers to drink very small amounts of alcohol while pregnant (i.e. a glass of watered down wine once a week won’t do any harm). You see a pregnant woman drinking a glass of wine do you call the police? If the police see her do they arrest her? What about doctor/patient confidentiality mentioned by Wring?

So, in short, my take on the OP is the mother probably deserves to be thrown in jail for producing a crack baby but I can see no way to design laws and penalties for said mothers that wouldn’t be far worse than crack babies in the first place.

Let’s hope this problem can be defeated via other methods (only wanted babies, good education, good prenatal care, etc.).

11

“I know the perfect way to handle overpopulation. Death penalty for parking violations.”

-- Steve Martin, *Let's Get Small*
12

One of my favorite studies on drinking during pregnancy, from http://www2.potsdam.edu/alcohol-info/FAS/FAS.html

A study of pregnancies in eight European countries found that consuming no more than one drink per day did not appear to have any effect on fetal growth. A follow-up of children at 18 months of age found that those from women who drank during pregnancy, even two drinks per day, scored higher in several areas of development

13

I agree with them on this. There is no reason why this would have to be a FEDERAL law. The Federal government is already legislating in a lot of areas they have no business meddling in.

If some politician wants to start clarifying existing murder laws, they need to get out of federal government and run for state senate.

14

I made this comment on the other board, but I like to be consistant about these things, so…

I am all for legislationwhich makes it a greater penalty if someone attacks a pregnant woman and hurts the unborn child to the point of killing or severely injuring it.

This takes away the choice a woman wants to do with her fetus, and I am pro-choice.

However, I don’t like the idea of policing the behavior of pregnant women. Even if they are smoking crack, and even if this results in the death of her fetus, it is not consistant in a society where abortion is legal (as I believe it should be) to do this.

That said, I see no reason we can’t take away kids from parents who are unfit, so I have no problem with a social worker telling a pregnant woman, “If you keep doing what you’re doing, that kid is ours.”

I realize this plan is not perfect, and I also feel that women being irresponsible during pregnancy is repellant to my own values. But I think it’s the only way to be consistant about this.

Yer pal,
Satan - Commissioner, The Teeming Minions

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