Well of course there’s a sound! The fact that there is no sound becouse sound can be defined as “vibrations generated in the hearing organs caused by [the] sound.” is irrelevant. This is one of those pointless Zen questions like “What is the sound of one hand clapping?” and “Why do we drive on the parkway and park on the driveway?”. The fact is that there IS a sound if a tree falls in the woods. See, I know cuz I set up a tape recorder and then had this deaf guy cut down the tree. There was a loud CRRR-R-R-AAAA-C-C-C-RAAAAAAA-CCCKKKK-CREAK-
WHOOSH-SNAP-SNAP-SNAP-SNAP-B-B-BUH-BANG!!!
So there is definitely a sound. But so what?
That’s just common sense. Zen questions are great to clear one’s mind and all, but if you take them literally (well, okay, with the exception of the parkway one, I’ve always wondered about that!) then the effect is lost, and it becomes a debate about something pointless as it is a question that has no answer! Like the whole “What happens when an irresistible force meets an immovable object?” Who knows? Who cares? Not like it’s ever gonna happen so we can find out.
Sheesh.
“I was being honest, @$$hole, I would expect YOU to know the difference.”
~~John Bender in The Breakfast Club.
Talk to me, baby! mcdsanti@hotmail.com
I’ve always felt this question goes a bit deeper than the definition of sound waves. Sure, the air vibrates, but there is no sound without an ear. And if you see the reasoning there, then we can carry this seemingly simple Zen riddle (and what’s so terrible about that?) all the way to the REAL question, which is: if there is no one to perceive an event, does the event occur at all? If there are no sentient beings, is there a universe? Is the world really only going on inside my head?
Haven’t you seen The Matrix? Of course it’s all in your head. Nobody’s real, and the world around you is just an illusion, a trick of your senses. The chemical reactions and electrical impulses in your brain are being manipulated to make you think that you in a physical world, but you are not. You are just a brain in a mad scientist’s jar, and he is just a brain in someone else’s jar and so is he/she in yet another person’s and so on and so on and so on. So therefore, nothing we do matters so what’s the point of even living if it’s all a lie? Is ignorance bliss? How do we know? And if we don’t know, what difference does it make?
What a load.
Of course that’s just my opinon, I could be wrong…
“I was being honest, @$$hole, I would expect YOU to know the difference.”
~~John Bender in The Breakfast Club.
Talk to me, baby! mcdsanti@hotmail.com
The fact that there is no one around to hear a sound does not mean it does not exist. Sound is not conscious. It can not decide to be or not to be. It will always “BE” regardless of a receptor. The sun does not go away when you turn your back to it. What an ego one must have to believe that things exist only in their presence.
As the great one pointed out - this is all semantics. You can either dismiss it by defining sound as vibration of air molecules, or you can make it a Zen riddle by using definition “C”.
Sound exists, but the interpretation of sound by the brain from the sound waves impacting upon the ear drum is generally defined as “noise”. (Whether a beautiful noise or not.)
If you accept this premise, then you will recognize that the original question reads “If a tree falls in the forest, and there is no one around to hear it, does it make a NOISE?” This isn’t a Zen question; it’s just one of those trick questions to trip you up …like which way does the steam blow from an electric train, etc.
In the words of Admiral Doubleday, don’t take the world seriously!
Sometimes, you just can’t see the forest through the trees! And, you can’t hear them, either!
The scary thing is that 90% of the people think they’re above average! - unknown
The fact that there is no one around to hear a sound does not mean it does not exist. Sound is not conscious. It can not decide to be or not to be. It will always “BE” regardless of a receptor. The sun does not go away when you turn your back to it. What an ego one must have to believe that things exist only in their presence.
Obviously not the words of a solipsist. I’m waiting for someone to Bring up Schrodinger’s Cat and ask if the state vector of the sound collapses in isolation. Just as one must open the box before the cat exists in a live or dead state, so perhaps one must go to the forest before the sound either exists or does not exist.
Damn! I was just about to bring in quantum mechanics! Woodja beat me to it!
I have always felt that the sound DOES exist – to believe that physical processes are suspended in my absence would require me to have a truly monumental ego, or to be an epistimologist. Actually, I’m a bit of both. Nevertheless, as I age and (hopefully) mature, I have come to the following compromise: waves of pressurized air are certainly created (if not, then all science is meaningless); but “sound” requires an ear to hear it.
My own version of this conundrum: I do not dream. Once or twice a year; that’s it. Now, I am fully aware that sleep researchers have established that everybody dreams every night, and I certainly do not claim to be an exception to that rule. But, if my dreams are in my mind, and my mind has no record of them, then in what sense of the word do they “exist”? Same problem.
“The dawn of a new era is felt and not measured.” Walter Lord
Despite what the column says, if you define “sound” equal in every way to “noise”, then the point is lost. Who has ever heard of noise waves? What is the speed of noise? When did they break the noise barrier?
The dictionary may choose to define noise as a sound, but sound has a very technical definition…and the question being discussed must be addressed from a technical perspective.
Where does Cecil say that sound and noise are equivalent? I didn’t see any reference to noise in the column. I would say that noise is a subset of sound, with the somewhat subjective meaning of being that which is not signal. Signal carries information, noise does not and has the general property of obscuring signal.
from Webster’s:
1 : loud, confused, or senseless shouting or outcry
2 a : SOUND; especially : one that lacks agreeable musical quality or is noticeably unpleasant b : any sound that is undesired or interferes with one’s hearing of
something c : an unwanted signal or a disturbance (as static or a variation of voltage) in an electronic device or instrument (as radio or television); broadly : a
disturbance interfering with the operation of a usually mechanical device or system d : electromagnetic radiation (as light or radio waves) that is composed of several
frequencies and that involves random changes in frequency or amplitude e : irrelevant or meaningless data or output occurring along with desired information.
You could certainly say that insofar as a tree falling makes sound, that sound is noise.
antics with semantics
I still say that quantum physics teaches us that an observer is required to collapse the wave state. Until then, it both exists and does not exist simultaneously.
It’s also equally possible that I am trying to be constructive or only trying to muddy the issue.
har
See, woodja has the same ideas that I do. Sound just is, no matter what is around to hear it.
I have never seen Pluto, but I have no doubts that it exists.
Does anyone think that gravity shuts off in remote parts of the world where there is no human habitation?
“I was being honest, @$$hole, I would expect YOU to know the difference.”
~~John Bender in The Breakfast Club.
Talk to me, baby! mcdsanti@hotmail.com
Hang on a minute, everyone.
The point of this koan (Zen for ‘chestnut’) is not to discuss the definition of sound.
The problem is when you try to work it out by picturing the forest and the tree falling (crash) and so on, you’re imagining it as though you were there. But according to the koan, you’re not. No one is.
So the purpose of this koan is to get you to imagine a situation in which you yourself * are not present*.
And that’s very Zen – trying to imagine one’s own non-existence.
Did anyone achieve satori just then? You’re welcome.
LoL, these types of subjects seem answerable but yet when you actually take some time to think about… the answer is unknown to all men. :confused I’d like to know how people actually came up with these sorts of topics. I guess the human body and mother nature work in very odd ways.
If a bear craps in the woods, and a tree falls on the bear and kills it, at the moment of the bear’s demise, does the turd stop stinking? (assuming there is nothing else around w/ olfactory receptors)
I think if it’s zen, then they were probably talking about one of those little bonsai trees. In which case, probably wouldn’t make very much noise or sounds.
We live in an age that reads too much to be wise, and thinks too much to be beautiful–Oscar Wilde
Nevertheless, as I age and (hopefully) mature, I have come to the following compromise: waves of pressurized air are certainly created (if not, then all science is meaningless); but “sound” requires an ear to hear it.