Note that we’re not in GQ. Bring to the discussion anything you may find relevant.
This isn’t the first time the thought has crossed my mind, but I’ve considered it more and more as anti-Islamic rhetoric and acts increase in the West. Islam is of course a religion, but it seems like, from a social perspective in Europe and North America, it’s like Judaism in that if it’s part of your cultural heritage then it’s how others will identify you and how you will identify yourself.
In some reading I’ve done, and in some period films I’ve seen, I gather that prior to the rise of the Nazis there were people of Jewish ancestry who were practicing Christians and didn’t personally identify as Jewish- only to face the rude awakening that they absolutely were Jewish in the eyes of the Reich. It’s my understanding that a cultural effect of the horrors of the Holocaust has been that anyone of Jewish ancestry will personally identify as Jewish regardless of their religion or lack thereof. (This paragraph is a simplification just to advance to the next part of the discussion but feel free to address any points you see as being in error.)
In Ireland during the worst of times, even if you were a Buddhist you’d be asked if you were a Catholic Buddhist or a Protestant Buddhist because the conflict between Catholics and Protestants really had nothing to do with theology. It was a cultural conflict and your personal identity said what side you were on.
I get the feeling that since 2001, anyone from a Muslim culture recognizes that “Well, THEY are going to identify me as Muslim, and it won’t do me any good to launch a theological discussion, so I’ll identify as Muslim because issues and policies directed at Muslims will always have a direct impact on me regardless of my religion or lack thereof.”
I wonder if this was the case before 2001 as well. I wouldn’t have noticed back then.
I’ve been thinking of it a lot now that people are getting interrogated at airports.
If you’re an atheist, but your parents are Muslim, and you’re pressured by some government entity to answer the question “Are you a Muslim?”, seems like your damned no matter what answer you give.
My father was P(rotestant/resbyterian, I never remember) and my mother was Jewish. We were a secular household. We had a xmas tree and a menorah, but they were seasonal decorations like hearts on Valentine’s Day.
People have told me I’m Jewish. I always explain that I’m not.
You are Jewish. Like it or not. There are two ways to become Jewish: 1) your mother is Jewish, or 2) you convert.
I’m not sure if you’re male or female (sorry… can’t tell from the name), but if you’re female, your children are Jewish, and your daughters’ children are, too, and so on through the female line. Judaism isn’t about “practicing your faith” or about belief. Many Jews are secular and in fact, atheist. It’s an identity.
If he says he’s not Jewish, he’s not. Like it or not.
I was raised Jewish, and my husband was raised Muslim. We have both been atheists for nearly our entire lives, and there’s no reason to consider ourselves anything other than atheists.
Yeah, I mean if kayaker doesn’t consider himself Jewish then the “rules” of Judaism wouldn’t mean anything to him. No sense insisting to him that he’s Jewish.
But, I’m more interested in social implications, however unjust, when it’s a socially more powerful group imposing a definition of the “other”.
Between me and kayaker, kayaker’s not Jewish because he says he isn’t.
But when an antisemite is breaking a bottle over kayaker’s head calling him a filthy Jew, I wonder of the effectiveness of explaining to the antisemite the error of his ways and afterward sharing a laugh about the silly misunderstanding.
Of course, it’s ignorant and backwards trying to assign identity to other people against their will.
It is precisely the ignorant and backward people of whom to be most afraid!
According to Judaism, he’s Jewish. According to his self-identity, he’s not. And I can only echo the above-expressed sentiment:
“But when an antisemite is breaking a bottle over kayaker’s head calling him a filthy Jew, I wonder of the effectiveness of explaining to the antisemite the error of his ways and afterward sharing a laugh about the silly misunderstanding.”
Isn’t it a principle in Islam - perhaps in Muslim countries with apostasy laws, at least - that you are born a Muslim if your parents are Muslim, and that regardless of how you personally feel about it, if you convert to another religion, you have committed apostasy and have sinned/committed a crime?
If you take ThelmaLou’s claim seriously, then almost none of us Ashkenazy are actually Jewish. Indisputed mitochondrial DNA evidence shows that almost all of us have European MtDNA in our female line. Since I rather doubt there was any formal conversion in those bygone days, I infer that we are actually not Jewish.
So it does ultimately come down to self-identification. Anything else gets us into undecidable quagmires. And I really don’t care what the learned rabbis say. Who appointed them arbitrators of this?
I’m not insulted, I’m just trying to correct an error I see. I grew up in a mostly Jewish neighborhood. Self identifying/claiming to be Jewish would have made my childhood easier.
It’s my understanding that a child of a Muslim is required to declare their faith upon reaching puberty to be considered a Muslim. Muslim is not an ethnicity the way that Judaism is and there is no such thing as a atheist Muslim the way that there are atheist Jews.
However, if you were at sometime a Muslim and then cease to be one you may wish to avoid advertising that fact particularly in certain countries as the penalty can include execution.
[QUOTE=gnoitall;20032654Likewise, if any… ANY… of your ancestors were black, you are black. Even just one [drop of blood]
(One-drop rule - Wikipedia). :rolleyes:
See how ignorant and backward it sounds, trying to assign identity to other people against their will?
[/QUOTE]
She’d not be Jewish (and neither would you be then) unless at some point she converted to Judaism. In some (definitely not all) cases, the child undergoes conversion at the time of adoption. If the child is converted before Bar(Bat)Mitzva, when they reach the age of consent they must be given the choice to reject the conversion. If at that time the person rejects the conversion, they are not Jewish.
Well in order to truly be a Muslim you must perform the Muslim declaration of faith, Shahadah, three times in the presence of witnesses with sincerity and without any reservations. Therefore a baby could not be born a Muslim since they have not made the declaration of faith.