If characters in the Sims become self-aware, what can they discover?

Great Debates
81

I agree with the above, but I think that we are getting caught up in the details of how difficult it is to simulate a very complicated world.

We don’t know how much computational complexity is needed for self-awareness to arise. I don’t think we even know for sure if a cat or an ant is self-aware, so how can we know how much computing power is needed to make a simulated object self-aware?

It is possible, though very improbable, that a self-aware entity can arise in a very simple world (compared to ours).

Whether or not the world is programmed on the microscopic level (which people have showed will take an extreme amount of computing power) or on a macroscopic level, this entity will begin to have thoughts.

And if more than one attain self-awareness, they will begin to have discussions. They need not start probing at the sub-atomic level before they start to discuss theories about the world.

I’m sure Plato and his contemporaries were not nuclear physisists. They just sat there and theorized about the world. So, in some sense, in Plato’s time, it is almost as if it would make no difference if our world did not in fact consist of atoms.

Of course, in later years, when people started experiments that tested the atomic structure of matter, our world could not continue to behave as if it were defined on a macroscopic level. But for Plato, it wouldn’t make much difference to the content of his philosophical inquiries.

So, my question is what sort of philosophical inquiries can a self-aware entity have?

How much can a self-aware entity (of a similar intelligence to ours) in any environment deduce about things like the nature of existence, justice, ethics, etc, i.e. things that the ancient Greek philosophers dealt with?

If we think of a brain in a vat, even with no external sensory data, can’t this brain have thoughts? Can it start reasoning about existence, etc? Let’s not get hung up on the details of how detailed the simulated world is.

Of course, once you go from philosophy to science and our little sentient Sims start to do research, then I guess the exact nature of the simulation will affect what they can find out.

But, what about philosophically? What truths can any sentient being arive at irrespective of its environment?

82

Since you believe in souls, but are excluding them for this discussion, and since you say that we should not look only at the “hardware” level, what do you think gives us humans self awareness?

I think that if we exclude the soul from the discussion, then any self-awareness muct necesserily arise from the molecules that are in our head, and therefore must arise from simple matter.

Whether or not today’s computer programs are capable of making self-aware entities is one thing, but it is clear that since the molecules in our brain give us self-awareness, then we should be able to eventually build computers of some sort that enable self-aware entities.

Unless, of course, you believe that the only possible way for self-awareness to arise is from the exact same combination of molecules as in our brain. And I think this is unlikely.

83

I suspect it would start at one plus one equals two. Then it would go onto Plato and Socraties like behavior. That is, untill I start to change it! BHa-ha-ha! Those poor little sim will find that when they put together two objests on a flat surface, that it they will suddenly turn into three identical object. Not, when more than two is put down, no, just two. Then I will start getting really nasty.

Ahem. What I meant to say is that I would nudge them along with their attemps to find the nature of the universe they live in.

84

I didn’t say I was excluding the soul, only that I had no logical argument in favor of it and that it wasn’t the point of my post anyway. I don’t know what truly defines self awareness but I’m certain of a few things that aren’t such as computer programs that accomplish the trivial task of fooling us. I think therefore I am but I have my doubts about you. You telling me that you think is on one level no more convincing than a tape recorder playing a voice that says it thinks.

Nothing personal, I do think you have self awareness but it is to some extent a matter of faith for me. I think my cat does too. She has instinctive reflexes but I don’t think she is a complete automoton. I probably cut her some slack because she’s fuzzy and she purrs when I scratch her ears. I’d really like to think that we are more than the sum of the electric impulses in a lump of gray mush. I think a self aware mind has a lot to do with the fact that it is built by itself with no more preprogramming than a cell’s DNA and the right environment. When we build a machine then power it on then give it a program or at least a starting state are we really simulating the brain? Can we simulate our minds that way?

Using the sims as a exercise in self awareness is meaningless because of what I said before but maybe didn’t make clear. The simulation isn’t for the people in the machine it’s for us.

85

We wouldn’t necessarily need to - The whole thing was a response to an earlier question as to whether we could simulate a universe where material properties were emergent artifacts of their underlying makeup.

I think someone else touched on it in this thread and I’ve mentioned it before in a long-ago thread of mine called ‘Are we living in a simulated universe?’ (can’t find the link right now) - it would be possible to simulate a universe only down to the necessary detail; light could have general properties until someone looks more closely at it, then it would be simulated down to a fine level on demand. The exact position/velocity of particles wouldn’t need to be fixed until and unless they were observed.