[QUOTE=Meatros]
Frankly I see a problem with a non-physical entity lifting anything, much less a rock of any sort of mass.
So prior to the rock problem it might be helpful for someone to explain how god could lift anything - especially if he’s outside of time/space.
[/QUOTE]
That is, pretty much, the answer to the OP, as posed. God is not about making or lifting rocks, so the question is pointles and the answer is mu.
[QUOTE=Malacandra]
Insofar as you lose the capacity to choose what you do not want to choose, yes; but I don’t see why that’s a bad thing.
Because He desires us to choose obedience to Him when we have the opportunity to choose otherwise.
But a man can choose to surrender his sinful nature to Christ and have his sins washed away. He can choose to at least attempt to keep the commandments with God’s grace upholding him, and ask for his failures to be forgiven. I don’t believe you’ll find that to be heretical.
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Hold up a second - if assurance is something different then robbing us of free will, then we still have the opportunity to choose otherwise in heaven - we just don’t. If that’s the case, then the same could be granted to us while on earth or only those people who don’t want to sin could have been created.
If assurance is robbing us of free will then what’s the point of granting it to us in the first place?
Also, I can’t see how it’s not disturbing to envision a god who creates people he knows will go to hell. Why create them at all? If it’s because of some machievillian notion for a greater good, then why not just create philosophical zombies that would enable the people who are not destined to go to hell to interact with?
That way the necessary evil is still committed and the heavenly bound people can still acheive a higher good.
[QUOTE=Sapo]
Bingo. Now we have to define sin.
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No we don’t. Sin has been defined. Pick your religion, they have a definition.
What reason would we have to do that? I don’t remember reading that in any religious text. I’m pretty sure it’s god and not you who defines sin, and according to his followers he’s already done so. Quite a long list it is too.
Well, no, not according to any doctrine I’ve heard. You covert your neighbor’s wife, you’ve committed a sin, regardless of your motive.
[QUOTE=hotflungwok]
No we don’t. Sin has been defined. Pick your religion, they have a definition.
What reason would we have to do that? I don’t remember reading that in any religious text. I’m pretty sure it’s god and not you who defines sin, and according to his followers he’s already done so. Quite a long list it is too.
Well, no, not according to any doctrine I’ve heard. You covert your neighbor’s wife, you’ve committed a sin, regardless of your motive.
[/QUOTE]
that’s all very old school. It is certainly easier to attach backwards religions but IIRC, at least catholics had moved past the list and into the intention to sin being a requisite for sin to exist. You sin only when you WANT to sin and are conscious of the sinfulness of your action. Provisions must be made to exclude strategic ignorance, of course.
The flaw in this logic is that your presumption of God being real is false…
[QUOTE=hotflungwok]
Either the only people allowed in heaven are those who have absolutely no desire to commit any sin whatsoever, or, in order to keep heaven sin free, god has to either a) change people who want to sin into people who don’t want to sin or b) make it so they can’t sin. If god does a, he’s forcing you to do/be something you’re not, negating free will. If god does b, then he’s preventing you from doing something you want to do, again negating free will. If god only allows people into heaven who have no desire to commit even the most minor of sins, then he’s lonely.
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I believe that when we transend to what we call Heaven, we rise about the pettiness that make us want to sin.
Why didn’t God make us perfect to begin with? I don’t know, I’ll ask Him when I get there.
[QUOTE=BrandonR]
The flaw in this logic is that your presumption of God being real is false…
[/QUOTE]
the argument being “if god IS all powerful” kind of implies that it is real. Something that is not real cannot be all powerful. If our arguments leads us to the conclusion that God is not real, then that’s what it is, but just saying that with nothing to back it up does nothing for the discussion at hand.
[QUOTE=BrandonR]
The flaw in this logic is that your presumption of God being real is false…
[/QUOTE]
Thank you for coming out of lurkdom to bless us with your wisdom. You’ve added so much to the discussion.
[QUOTE=Sapo]
that’s all very old school. It is certainly easier to attach backwards religions but IIRC, at least catholics had moved past the list and into the intention to sin being a requisite for sin to exist. You sin only when you WANT to sin and are conscious of the sinfulness of your action. Provisions must be made to exclude strategic ignorance, of course.
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So then the more you tell a person about sin, and the larger the number of things they now know is a sin, the greater their chances of going to hell? By your argument someone completely ignorant of sin is incapable of sinning.
[QUOTE=Lord Ashtar]
I believe that when we transend to what we call Heaven, we rise about the pettiness that make us want to sin.
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So you become a different person against your will when you go to heaven?
[QUOTE=hotflungwok]
So you become a different person against your will when you go to heaven?
[/QUOTE]
I think what is meant is that the process of becoming a person worthy of Heaven involves change and growth that preclude sin.
Let’s say, for example that I’m a man who thinks women are by definition inferior to men and that it is perfectly okay to rape them as long as you can get away with it; all that restricts me from rape is fear of punishment. Let’s further say that during the course of my life I gain empathy; I have a daughter, say, whom I love, and whom I cannot bear to imagine being raped, and because of my love for her I come to see other women as having value as well, and thus no longer believe rape to be justifiable. That is the sort of change, I think, that (according to persons who believe in Heaven) makes sin impossible there. During the course of one’s life one gets past the selfishness and pain that made sin possible on earth.
(For the record, I don’t believe in Heaven myself.)
[QUOTE=Skald the Rhymer]
I think what is meant is that the process of becoming a person worthy of Heaven involves change and growth that preclude sin.
Let’s say, for example that I’m a man who thinks women are by definition inferior to men and that it is perfectly okay to rape them as long as you can get away with it; all that restricts me from rape is fear of punishment. Let’s further say that during the course of my life I gain empathy; I have a daughter, say, whom I love, and whom I cannot bear to imagine being raped, and because of my love for her I come to see other women as having value as well, and thus no longer believe rape to be justifiable. That is the sort of change, I think, that (according to persons who believe in Heaven) makes sin impossible there.
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What if in your example, the person doesn’t gain any empathy, but still hasn’t raped anyone when they die? Now they think that rape is perfectly ok, but have committed no sin to prevent them from going to heaven. If god stops them from raping, or makes them not want to rape, then he’s denying them free will.
[QUOTE=hotflungwok]
What if in your example, the person doesn’t gain any empathy, but still hasn’t raped anyone when they die? Now they think that rape is perfectly ok, but have committed no sin to prevent them from going to heaven. If god stops them from raping, or makes them not want to rape, then he’s denying them free will.
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The Bible actually deals with that. It’s about the true intent of the heart. Jesus said if we look at another man’s wife with lust we have committed adultery in our hearts. The Pharisees who prayed only to be seen as pious by others got what they wanted but nothing else. More than obeying the rules is sought for, but an actual transformation of the inner person.
Sheesh guys, cut him some slack. God’s not as young as he used to be.
[QUOTE=hotflungwok]
What if in your example, the person doesn’t gain any empathy, but still hasn’t raped anyone when they die? Now they think that rape is perfectly ok, but have committed no sin to prevent them from going to heaven. If god stops them from raping, or makes them not want to rape, then he’s denying them free will.
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If I believed in the afterlife, which I don’t, I’d say that to be in Heaven one must WANT to be there in God’s presence more than anything else; which means, in turns, that one wants Good more than Evil. If you’re the kind of person who thinks rape is ok, or that shooting up a college campus is an appropriate way to deal with your angst, or that it’s okay to torture your enemies to get information out of them, Heaven won’t be heavenly for you.
[QUOTE=hotflungwok]
So then the more you tell a person about sin, and the larger the number of things they now know is a sin, the greater their chances of going to hell? By your argument someone completely ignorant of sin is incapable of sinning.
[/QUOTE]
pretty much right on both accounts. The more you know, the more life becomes a minefiled. Then again, if you know more, you should also know better.
A person living in a state of true innocence is, indeed, incapable of sin, whatever the reason for that innocence. Mental handicaps, extremely primitive peoples, etc.
Still, what matters is your own internal morality. If for whatever reason, you convinve yourself that eating green jello is a sin (and it should be, really), then you sin when you do. That opens the door to sin for even the most “innocent”.
The only truly incapable of sin, then, would be those who are not fully aware of themselves but then you are stepping into the very threshold of humanity.
[QUOTE=hotflungwok]
So you become a different person against your will when you go to heaven?
[/QUOTE]
Does a caterpillar change into a butterfly against its will?
[QUOTE=Lord Ashtar]
Does a caterpillar change into a butterfly against its will?
[/QUOTE]
I’m not sure I understand what you are saying; it seems to me that a caterpillar has no choice at all in the matter of changing into a butterfly.
[QUOTE=cosmosdan]
The Bible actually deals with that. It’s about the true intent of the heart. Jesus said if we look at another man’s wife with lust we have committed adultery in our hearts. The Pharisees who prayed only to be seen as pious by others got what they wanted but nothing else. More than obeying the rules is sought for, but an actual transformation of the inner person.
[/QUOTE]
And if the person doesn’t know it’s a sin?
[QUOTE=Sapo]
pretty much right on both accounts. The more you know, the more life becomes a minefiled. Then again, if you know more, you should also know better.
[/QUOTE]
Then by spreading the word you are dooming more souls to hell.