If great criminal success also requires hard work, why don't those people just focus on legitimate endeavours with less risk?

I’ve mentioned Goodfellas already. I know it’s a movie but it’s based on real people and events and it’s a pretty accurate depiction of what working in organized crime is like.

It showed that the idea of “honor among thieves” is a myth. Criminals will turn on anyone, including the criminals they work with. And they all know that. So every criminal is constantly looking at the people he works with and trying to figure out if they’re going to betray him and if he should betray them first to protect himself. And knowing that they’re all thinking the same thing and trying to figure out if they should betray him before he has a chance to betray them.

And that’s just the killings you get because of concerns over police investigations. There’s also business rivalries like Bill Bats being killed over a loan shark operation. Or getting killed because some other organized crime outfit wants to challenge the organized crime outfit that you work for. Or getting killed because of some personal reason unrelated to crime (in real life, Paul Vario was having an affair with Karen Hill). Or getting killed while committing some crime by a cop or a security guard or a victim who is unexpectedly armed.

There are hundreds of ways to fail in crime and there’s no practical way to succeed. If you start to succeed the pressure just gets higher. You attract more attention from the police and more rivalry from other criminals.

My brother is not what you’d call a “successful” criminal, but he has gotten through life via crime. He has been in jail and prison multiple times. His financial situation is very poor, as is his health.

He’s not stupid, he’s quite intelligent, but he devotes his efforts to trying to get what he can out of everyone. He can be charming when he tries but he also struggles with drug addiction and mental illness. He has tried to have straight jobs but they never work out. His criminal business efforts mostly revolve around fraud (identity theft, forged checks, etc.).

He told me in the past that he engages in crime because he thinks that he is smarter than his victims and he deserves whatever he gets, and if he pulls something over them then they deserve it. In his case his inability to sustain a straight job is definitely a factor, but given a choice he still prefers being a criminal.

He’s also a violent person which is the main reason I haven’t had anything to do with him for years. As said earlier, violence is an asset in crime where it’s counterproductive in a normal job.

He may be able to successfully steal money from regular people. But what are his relations with other criminals?

That’s a cost of crime that criminals tend to not think about. Part of being a criminal is you associate with other criminals. Regular people associate mostly with other regular people; they rarely encounter a criminal. So regular people live in a community where people follow rules and aren’t always trying to rob them.

Criminals end up living in a criminal community (regardless of whether it’s inside a prison or out on the streets). So while they may be victimizing regular people, they’re always surrounded by criminals who are looking to victimize them. Unlike regular people, criminals live in a community where people lie to you, steal from you, betray you, and use violence against you.

What about the criminals family? Dont you also have to look at protecting them? Will other criminals put out a hit on your family?

It’s the lifestyle they crave as much as anything else. I watched a true crime program once. A couple of guys spent over two years planning and executing a break out from prison. Think of the dedication that takes. And the discipline. They successfully escaped. The first night of freedom they robbed a place and used the money to rent an hotel room and hookers and cocaine. Loud party - busted.

Two years planning the perfect escape and no planning on what to do when they got out. They didn’t escape to be free - I believe they escaped to continue being criminals.

I know the following is a movie but it’s based on real people.

That is very accurate. I’ve seen numerous cases where prisoners put a huge amount of effort into planning how they are going to get out of prison by zero effort into planning how they are going to stay out of prison.

Here’s a tip that’s so obvious, I don’t feel bad about giving it away: if you escape from prison, don’t go home. We know where your home is. The police will be waiting there when you arrive. They will arrest you and bring you back to prison.

Like I said, you’d think this would be obvious. But you’d be amazed how often this is the first place an escaped prisoner goes to.

About like how many people put far more effort into planning their wedding than they do planning their marriage. With equally predictable (lack of) success.

You mean like “Home is where they’ll always take you in”?
Just the wrong “they” in this case. :wink:

One case I remember was a prisoner who absconded from open prison - he was missed very quickly, which demonstrates poor planning - he took the bus home, when he got off the police arrested him.

Another one had absconded from the same place - was thumbing a lift, and the driver took him to his own workplace - which happened to be the prison.

For some people the only thing you can say is “If it weren’t for bad luck, he’d have no luck at all.”

At least in the USA, it’s common that there will be signs along highways near prisons pointing out a prison is nearby and to not pick up hitchhikers.

The driver actually knew exaclty who the hitchicker was - but the hitchhiker didn’t know the driver.

Its a low risk prison - open conditions so it isn’t hard just to simply walk away from a community job like litter picking and local grass cutting. Obviously we don’t put dangerous individuals in there - mostly traffic offences and fine defaulters.

I just read an account of the life (and death) of a succesful local career criminal. (Won’t provide a link, since it’s not in English). This Drug Baron guy was at the top of the heap over a large geographical area, importing and distributing drugs by the ton, with a small army of employees, excellent connections even to the civilian world, and lived a upper middle-class family life, with a gym ownership as a front.

Late in his life he would install mirror systems to his house, excavate a hidden passageway from his wardrobe to the parking lot, and often sleep in a trailer parked at his yard, for better surveillance of his house.

A short time before he was whacked he implemented a rule that no-one but people he knew personally would be allowed inside his house. Then a guy he knew well came for a visit, sat for a cup of coffee and gunned the Drug Baron down in his kitchen, with the wife and small children of the rare succesful criminal watching.

Living a criminal life, even high up, is a Paranoid Hell, where the paranoia is fully justified.

First place I saw them was in Arizona. It was good for a chuckle the first time I saw one.

And then there’s “Breaking Bad,” where a legit science teacher decides to use his powers for evil instead of niceness. Sure, he thought he was dying of cancer and that he had a family to provide for etc. so he cooked crystal meth. But later on he realized he was going to be ok…yet he didn’t stop cooking. He took pride in the quality of his meth. He took pride in not getting caught. He took pride in a stack of cash he had in a storage unit…

So sort of the “Man bites dog” version of a crime story. No wonder it’s popular.

In a totally different direction, when I was in high school, my economics teacher (technically just a “volunteer” who stood in for the actual inept teacher) was an inmate at the local federal penetentiary for white color crimes (a prison camp). He had been running all of the money laundering for a drug operation. So was very very well educated and trained. And he was one of the best teachers of my life. Unfortunately, all of his real world examples revolved around drugs (cocaine) as he believed that was the truest form of real world true markets. Supply and Demand, Scarcity, Regulation, impact of transportation, risk, etc. were very simplified by using real world drug stories.

The best part was that he was discovered by my high school at a scared straight presentation by the prison outreach. And when we went to calculus right afterward, we decided with the Calc teacher that there was no way that guy was going to get caught again as he was way too smart! Then he started volunteering (reducing his sentence and showing that he was totally trusted in a high school around kids!!! see, very fricking smart) daily for 6 hours where we had early internet, etc. I’m sure he was just running his business still but now via the school.

So in answer to the original question, because they won’t get caught as long as no one squeals.

They established pretty well on that show that Walter had a long-term problem with his ego and a persecution complex. The cancer thing became an excuse to do something that gave him the wealth and power he thought he always deserved. For me, he didn’t really “break” bad, he just finally let the bad out.

I expect there are real life criminals like that; people who suppress their more violent natures until given an excuse not to, something that lets them rationalize committing crime.

Agreed. And it doesn’t have to be violence. IMO a lot of white collar crime is driven by the same complex of mental issues.

Heck, a lot of terrible managers & business owners who don’t commit formal crimes but still commit ethical mayhem on their suppliers, customers, and employees, are driven by the same complex of mental issues.

It’s been awhile since I watched it, but I was thinking about this part:

In graduate school, Walt contributed to research that would win the 1984 Nobel Prize in Chemistry. After getting his degree, he co-founded the company Gray Matter Technologies with his friend Elliott Schwartz and his then-girlfriend Gretchen. Walt abruptly left the company and sold his financial interest for $5,000. Gretchen and Elliot later married and made a fortune when the company went public. Walt resents Elliot and Gretchen for profiting from his work without crediting him.

IIRC, social scientists call it “anomie.” If someone perceives that they’re not being treated fairly, they may decide to cheat, maybe justifying it as “fighting fire with fire.” Two wrongs make a right, look at what you made me do, well you started it, stop the steal, etc.

Its hard to become middle class by doing everything right (college, building your career, etc). Many criminals have endless strikes against them that make a middle class living even harder (criminal records, lack of education, racial bias, growing up in a bad environment, etc).

A good criminal can make more in one crime than someone who tried to do everything right can make in several months.

The same reasons try to be sports stars, actors, or musicians as careers. Those fields too require a lot of hard work, and the chances of being one the minority that becomes spectacularly rich and successfully doing them is very small. I don’t agree with everything he says but the “Freaknomics guy” Steven Leviit talks about this in what I think is one of his more insightful passages.