I accept their interests are valid. I’m waiting for them to accept a compromise, like the Irish did. Where’s the Palestinian leader who’s saying that Israel should keep its Ulster?
I’d prefer to avoid the centuries of death, but if they happen, they happen. We’re not going anywhere. We waited 2,000 years for our country; compared to that, a century or two of conflict are nothing.
There’s an argument that all of Israel is its own Ulster.
There’s an argument that all of Britain is actually Celtic land occupied by invading Anglo-Saxons.
I suppose that argument might be analogous if the population of Israel was genetically the result of intermarriage between the relevant groups. Genetically, the English are descendants of the Celts
And of the pre-Celts. In S.M. Stirling’s SF novel, Island in the Sea of Time, all of Nantucket gets mysteriously transported back to 1200 B.C. (long before the Celts were heard of). At one point, Marion Alston muses on how “English” looks the physiognomy of Swindapa Kurlelo (one of the Fiernan Bohulugi, a matriarchal culture in Bronze Age Britain – I assume Stirling derived the name from the Fir Bolgs of Irish mythology).
I rather suspect Jesus looked more like a Palestinian than anything else.
Are you under the impression that Palestinians and Israelis look different?
If you’ve ever spent time they’re you’ll notice that most Israelis could “pass” for a “Palestinian” and most Palestinians could “pass” for being “Israelis”(granted many are both and many of the Jews living there are the children and grandchildren of “Palestinians”.
Hush now. You know there’s no such thing as Semetic Jews in Palestine. That’s an AIPAC myth. They’re all descended from Celts.
You mean the Khazars.
Since the Israeli politics place so much weight onto their perceived divine claim of belonging on someone else’s land, the only right thing to do is carve out a space in the Sahara Desert in Africa and call it Israel.
I don’t think anyone would disagree with the validity of my proposition. Not on religious grounds, at least.
And what are they being offered than can *honestly *be called a “compromise”?
Where’s the Israeli leader saying that they should pull out of their foreign colonies, much less one saying that they should dismantle their Bantustans?
And that’s all you’ve learned from history? That it’s your turn now?
What a shame.
If “Ulster” means “the part of the WB Israel should keep,” where exactly is it?
Sorry. You don’t get a pass on your trolling by pretending that you are making some more noble point.
You are free to dispute any actions of Israel that you choose, but when you compare the entire nation to animals or claim that the situation is “due to an innate defect in Israelis, who cannot be considered morally competent,” you are simply trolling. When you are told to stop and you continue, you are also in violation of the rules regarding follwing staff instructions.
This is a Warning to stop.
Your posting privileges are now under review.
[ /Moderating ]
Being an Isareli is not shameful. Being proud of your country that happens to be Israel is not shameful. Pointing out facts to place events in context is not shameful.
What is shameful is someone being okay with displacing six million Jews because of some bad propaganda, even when the facts scream otherwise. What is shameful is blaming Israel for everything, and I mean everything, no matter who is in charge. No matter who did what, Israel is somehow at fault. What is shameful is making excuses for suicide bombers. What is shameful is turning a blind eye to a Fatah-Hamas union [after we supported Fatah and trained men in good faith] while pointing fingers at Netanyahu for being anxious about it. What is shameful is this idea that you can place the fate of eleven million people on one man and everyone that is sympathetic to him - what is shameful is this idea that you can do that, place all of the blame and responsibility on one party and absolve everyone else of the rest. It’s shameful to cry foul at Israel’s intercepting of a flotilla while neglecting to mention that Hamas turned away the goods after Israelis checked the supplies and unloaded them. It’s shameful to call Israelis corrupt thieves while conveniently ignoring that Palestinian leadership steals their people’s aid. It’s shameful to blame Israel for the refugee problem when no less than four Arab countries kept them in squalor for twenty years. What’s shameful is wanting to hold Israel up to one idea of ‘international law’ while disregarding the blatant disrespect of human life that feeds Hamas.
That is shameful.
Is that antisemitism? Well, in many parts of the world, criticizing Israel and calling someone a shameful* Zionist *is a euphemism for something, and it’s not to be said in polite company. Maybe you think you’re sticking up for the little guy, but in reality, you’re not. You’re sticking up for professional terrorists and puppeteers, not Palestinians.
I have been pretty calm over the last few weeks of Israel-bashing, but now I am fed up. Yeah, Bibi may be a jerk, but right now he’s my jerk, and Israel may have made mistakes, but every country has them, and I know of no other people in history that have gone through that much and come out with a resolve that is not bred out of hate.
So if you want to actually participate in a productive conversation about Israel and Palestine, that would be great. Because I’m pretty sure that most everyone that you have argued with has been sympathetic, realistic, and staightforward. You claim we’re so stubborn and won’t budge for ‘peace’, well, let me tell you something, mister, this dog and pony show the PLO has been doing for the last forty years has accomplished nothing but bloodshed and two generations of hopelessness. That’s the side you want to be on? You want to give me PLO and Hamas talking points? Where is your productivity? What’s your great idea - one that isn’t blaming it on someone else?
Do you know what happened a few weeks back when someone thought they’d blow shit up in Jerusalem? Cell phones went off just to check and make sure so-and-so was all right, and then the day continued. But no country should have to deal with that. Do you understand that Jews in the area have been dealing with this kind of shit for the last hundred years? You do get that Jews everywhere have been dealing with this for the last few thousand years? Don’t worry; I’ll spare you the stories about concentration camps and endless wars and hostages and blown-up schoolbuses.
Hamas & the PLO are gangs. They are spineless thugs who are too busy pissing lines in the sand instead of helping those who depend on them the most. Do you know what’s gutless? Telling a kid to strap a bomb on himself and drive towards a checkpoint. Talk about shame.
This is about people. Right now, Israelis have the better luck. But this isn’t Israelis v. Palestinians. This is about Palestinian leadership and what is and isn’t viable when dealing with a ticking time bomb.
You know what a good American is? Someone who wants to make his country better. You want to root for the Palestinians? Pray they get a real leader. I am, and its more for their sake than for Israel’s, because Israel is going to be around for a long, long time.
Do you know what’s worse than a million or so stateless Palestinians in the West Bank?
Dead ones.
OK, let’s start with the genocide and the land grab of the past 60 years… no matter who was in charge.
A claim of a divine right of other people’s land is a criminal offense.
So are you spewing unfounded lies about the only Jewish nation in the world because you like to be a badass on the interwebs or because you’re just like that?
Calling the 1948 war a genocide is a slap in the face to everyone who’s suffered through it or because of it and I really resent that. Comparing Jewish immigrants to European colonizers who murdered and enslaved millions is also equally wrong.
Hey, why the fuck was I redirected to CitizenPained’s blog? I thought I was logging on the Dope.
You know, fighting ignorance and such, not reveling in it.
You will not accuse other posters of lying in Great Debates.
That said, there is a tiny minority of Israelis who actually base their beliefs on the “divine right” to which you frequently allude, so until you dial back your accusations to something that can be supporeted by evidence, I am going to begin considering any similar claim by you to be trolling.
= = =
Both of you knock it off.
[ /Moderating ]
Sorry – I stand corrected. I was trying to say the he was spreading a myth, and so I don’t know how else to say it, except that he doesn’t cite it and has no place in respected academia.
Genocide is a loaded word, so I guess when you accuse a group of people who have recently experienced genocide of that very thing, it’s kind of a big deal.
imho
again, not my intent.
I thought my ears were burning. 
As **Allesan **already note, the British are still in Ireland. But more to the point, which countries have not had their borders set by wars? I’m not saying it has to be that way, but that is the normal way that it’s done, even if we like to think otherwise.
I’m sorry, but your arguments make no sense whatsoever.
First of all, what is this “claim of divine right” nonsense.
The founders of Israel were, with few exceptions, atheists so they certainly didn’t believe God gave them the land.
For that matter most Israelis are non-religious.
In fact, I don’t think Israel has had a single Orthodox Jew as PM, though I’d happy to be wrong.
Furthermore, if you’re going to classify Israel’s actions over the past sixty years to be “genocide” then you render the term meaningless since just about all countries who’ve fought in wars during that time, including both the US and the UK, engaged in far worse behavior.
I have to admit, I’m always surprised that people regularly accuse Israel of “genocide” but never say France, who’s actions in Algeria were far worse.
If anyone wishes to prove me wrong, please link me to a single post where a doper has accused France of genocide.