Creating a new post of Prime Minister and Arafat delegating much of his power to that new PM ?
It’s time for Bush to broker a deal between Israel and the Palestinians. We’re up to our elbows in the region right now. Syria is in no position to threaten Israel or to arm terrorists, right Rummy? Iran is similarly disadvantaged, for now. Moreover, Iran is ripe for change from within. Without Saddam around to slaughter a whole generation of young men, Iran is facing a demographic crunch.
As London_Calling noted, there is a new broker for the Palestinians.
Bush just needs to put the squeeze on Sharon, bleah! Mental picture. Bush needs to ‘persuade’ Ariel Sharon that it is in Israel’s best interests to deal, now, from strength. Or, we can wait around and do nothing substantial, except maybe invade Syria, thus confirming what most Arabs think about the US. (That the US is Israel’s lap dog)
Unfortunately, Abbas seems to have an ugly side to him as well. I guess it’s much easier to be considered a “moderate” when you hang out with extremists.
I vote for doing nothing substantial until the right of return is taken off the table. Which will probably never happen. Not much we can do about it either.
Is he a holocaust denier who can and will put a stop to the terrorism, or is he a status quo holocaust denier? Waiting for a Palestinian leader who doesn’t have some history of anti-Semitism, real or imagined,* might take longer than we have.
*Not to be interpreted as a statement about the man in question. I just know he’s not Yassir Arafat, which I think is good until proven otherwise at the peace table.
Is there anything in the way of a comprimise positon that could be negotiated on right of return? Is it possible to maintain Israel as the Jewish state with a majority non-Jewish population?
Sure it might be possible to maintain a Jewish state with a Jewish minority, but not with that particular majority. We ain’t that stupid. The only possible way to attain the whole right of return anyway is for a bigger state or entity to force it upon Israel. We are not going to do that, the sympathy for the Palestinian side is concentrated on the left and the left isn’t in power at the moment, and no one else is capable of forcing the issue. [We might even have a future democratic Arab state on the other side of Jordan which is unsympathetic to the Palestinians. Mind-boggling. Way, way optimistic but theoretically possible.]
Restitution could be the compromise, maybe, along with pulling back settlements but only for the people who aren’t primarily concerned with regaining the land of Israel, and are willing to let that issue drop for good. I have no idea how many of them exist.
I agree completely. Israel should do to the West Bank and Gaza what the US did to Iraq. Go in with the goal of at least ejecting Arafat, and not leave until all militant groups are destroyed or neutralized, and help set up a democratic, non-violent government. Enough of this ‘go in after a suicide bombing and pull out after a while’. Go in and stay in until it’s done and, like the US, to hell with world opinion. Israel’s interest is their own preservation, and the side effect will be hope for a long suffering people.
IOW, your proposing they should stay there till the end of time. Actually it’s not all that different from the status quo where Israelis are making military incursions on an almost daily basis.
The militant groups are very popular organizations, they aren’t a top down dictatorship that crumbles under a military threat. The oppression applied is directly proportional to the number of militants that rise up against Israel. The mere fact that they use suicide bombers shows that deterrence is unlikely to be effective. What moderate Palistinians there are will be drowned out, or converted by the oppressive actions of an imposed military state.
You’re assuming that power has actually devolved. Given Arafat’s history, there’s no reason to think it has just because some official positions have been renamed.
OR: force the Palestinians to annex Israel, and give all Israelis Palestinian citizenship.
Have a slight feeling that that might not work? That Israelis just possibly wouldn’t like to be forcibly made Palestinian, or made to live in a country predominantly run by another religion? Or see the end of their country as they know it? Or lose their independence and national sovereignty to a hostile neighbour?
Then you’ve also got it in one why your suggestion is unviable beyond belief.
By definition, no. It goes against everything the nation stands for. Besides, Israelis care about lots of things: democracy, freedom, human rights, equality; but most of all, and superceding all these, Israelis believe that just once, please, someone else should get to be the minority. Not us.
If only he could have been as moderate and reasonable as Sharon, right ?
If you don’t understand that people have to say what they have to say in order to gain power in the first place, then pop over to Room 101 where they’re currently instructing on ‘Politics for Beginners’ – all I know is that pro-Israeli American Jews don’t like him and Hammas don’t like him, so that’ll do for me. He should live about another 48 hours …
Fwiw, getting tied up on antecedents sure suited all colours of opinion in Ireland for a very long time. You hide behind that if you’re protecting your own personal power position or don’t want to deal - it’s got nothing to do with brokering a deal for any ‘greater good’ and ebverything to do with the self-interest of the person him/herself.
If you want to use history as an excuse to not, deals, why not use Bush cosying up to Gerry Adams to sink the Good Friday Agreement ?
If the militant groups are so popular among Palestinians that they would rather have them continue their operations than live in a productive society, then the answer is no, the Palestinians don’t deserve freedom.
Nice strawman… The Palestinians support militant organizations because they have been denied a productive society by the Israelis, and by proxy America, and are seeking rapid social change by any means necessary.
Do you honestly believe these people are happy that suicide bombers have become the last resort in a struggle to regain their homeland? It’s a nightmare for them as well as the Israeli’s.
I’m certainly not advocating it, but what you’ve described is clearly not unviable (is that a word?). It’s pretty much what the international Jewish community did to the Palestinian’s in reverse. The main difference being the Israeli’s didn’t make them full-fledged citizens so much as expel them or cordon them off into ghettos patrolled by tanks.
And as long as they continue to believe this, they will have no chance for freedom.
So why aren’t they free? Bad attitudes? Poor hygiene? Are they simply a bunch of shiftless lay-abouts that didn’t have the gumption to pick up and leave a country where they obviously weren’t wanted?
That’s the heart of the problem in my eyes. As a Jew, raised orthodox and having visited Israel several times, once for an extended period, I’m well versed in the justifications for a Jewish homeland. But, to escape persecution in our homelands, we have persecuted another culture in theirs. It’s not democracy, its not freedom, its definitely not human rights or equality. It is not just, and the problem is only escalating.
Israel is a colony in a post-colonial world. The grievances of the Palestinian’s are going to be redressed one way or another. Sharon, the Likkud, Arafat, and Bush seem intent on making sure it’s a violent process.
cain …
because they were denied a productive society by …?
By the Arab countries who could have accepted the original partition but instead annexed the land and kept the refugees in camps after the first failed war.
By the Arab countries who controlled the West Bank and Gaza until after 1968.
By their own leadership who turned down the path to reasonable solutions at CD2 without even offering a counter proposal.
Because of the occupation? Terrorism predates Israeli control of the occupied territories. Terorism exists because it is the weapon of choice by those who believe that Israel does not have a right to be there, not because of the occupation. The loss by the Arabs in 68 made it clear that traditional military operations would not accomplish those ends.
A national identitity of “Palestinian” is a recent historical creation that occurred in response to the creation of Israel. But it is now a reality. And you are right that their need for a homeland needs to be addressed. Setlements make that outcome harder to achieve. The Israeli administration needs to understand that.
Israel exists and will continue to exist. The Palestinians need to accept that reality. Characterizing Israel as a colonial power is inaccurate but more important it postpones their understanding that simple reality. Each step of the way their leadership could have accepted compromises. They never did. They used the plight of their people for their own advantage instead. And the people have allowed percieved past wrongs to blind them from seeing clear paths to a cooperative future.
A bold move would work. If the PA actually cracked down on, or at least made a good faith effort to crack down on terror elements within their ranks, then the Israeli administration would have no choice but to respond in kind with settlement withdrawl.
Unfortunately the record of the PA shows no reason to believe that the converse would hold.