[QUOTE=cosmosdan]
It’s this second way that I mean it. Not everyone is an explorer but I think the explorers have an effect that over time, usually generations, changes the game and what becomes the norm or the mean for the other players.
Good point. I’d say that was a reasonable way of looking at things given the evidence. Still, even though killing, conquering, and taking the other players stuff, still is plentiful,{and would be the fun stuff in any RPG} over the centuries we have made progress toward human rights, peace, caring for the poor, education, etc. I suppose I cling to that as hope. Perhaps it’s a vain hope.
fair enough.
Also fair enough. I do.
I think it’s reasonable to believe there is no guiding instinct but I think it’s just as reasonable to believe there is, or there may be, and to want to explore that possibility. I recognize that humanity’s move toward peace and cooperation rather than killing each other may just be the survival mode of evolution as the lines of which tribe is my tribe begin to blur and disappear. That’s okay.
[/QUOTE]
I’d say that if you want to play the game as though humanity is self-bettering, go for it! I think that humans are largely selfish, which can have an extremely similar effect to a humanity-bettering instinct if enough people in it see personal benefit to a bettered community, or if they see profit in spreading generally beneficial things (like inventions). And, even though I don’t think that most people contribute to a bettered humanity much, clearly when the dust settles, we’ve been in general advancing, for several values of “advancing”. (Perhaps not the ecological one though.)
Essentially we look at the world and infer different underlying mechanisms. I think on this, we can agree to disagree.
[QUOTE=cosmosdan]
All the supposition about the admins and what happens after end game have no real application in game except in how they affect the individual’s in game activity.
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I thought this deserved special note, since human perception of the “admin(s)” and the post-end-game tends to have a huge effect on how many people play the game. That is what most of most religion is, after all; and whe you assume a rigid enough scoring system, only one play through the game, and drastic enough post-end-game consequences based on your score for that play, then you can be driven to do all sorts of crazy stuff in order to assist yourself an others in “scoring properly”.
On the other hand, in the RPG scenario as I’m presenting it, there is very little (and no lasting) penalty for playing any which way. This lack of penalty would drain the metaphysical impetus for people to act in strange ways or try to control other people’s behavior, which I see as a good thing. It’s a large reason I like the model, above and beyond the fact that it’s very simple and consistent.
[QUOTE=cosmosdan]
I try another tact. If my speculation and the pursuit of trying to figure it out improves my game play and my enjoyment of the game, and by association improves the game experience of my nearby co players, I’ll continue that exploration. If it doesn’t, it’s time for a new approach.
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I can’t see a thing wrong with this.
[QUOTE=cosmosdan]
I’m interested in what you mean by acting on that belief dampens the fun of the game. Could you be more specific?
I can think of some examples in which that’s true but it’s also true that playing only for your own enjoyment can really screw the game for others.
for some players it’s all about imposing their will on other players, whether it’s taking their stuff and controlling their play, or constantly badgering them on how the game “should” be played.
I’ve also noticed a lot of players who seem so intimidated by the game that they look for other players to give them direction.
“Tell me how to play!”
“Just play, you’ll figure it out”
“But I want to do it right! Tell Me”
[/QUOTE]
You can’t really fault people for being concerned about how to play; there’s this meme going around that if you play wrong, you’ll be smacked down hard. That’s an intimidating notion.
The people who go around spreading this meme should stop. I M H O.
Now, if you don’t mind, I’ll bring in 9thFloor; I think answering him will answer you.
[QUOTE=9thFloor]
By that, you’re referring to the enjoyment that you’re denied (opportunity cost) when avoiding something you otherwise would have done but for acting on the belief that there are other levels and what that implies, right?
[/QUOTE]
Pretty much; that’s what opportunity cost is about after all: what you spend on one thing, you can’t spend on another. cosmosdan proposed that “Believing there may be another level doesn’t have to restrict fun”, and my response was, basically, “Wait, is that correct? Unless having and acting on that belief is fun for you, doesn’t spending time and effort on the belief take time away from your fun?” A minor point, really, but I have this bad habit of arguing minor points too.
It’s not that there’s necessarily something wrong with doing things for reasons other than fun either; simple fun’s a high priority for me but I know other people get their giggles from altruism or education or various other things. I was just questioning the notion that level-chasing wouldn’t cut into the fun-time, is all.
[QUOTE=9thFloor]
It’s ironic for those concerned about not wanting to “screw the game for others” that acting on beliefs about purpose seems to do that very thing (the old ‘religion has caused more wars’ thing).
Does the idea of “playing only for your own enjoyment can really screw the game for others” matter in your RPG, bb2?
Sounds to me like playing for your own enjoyment in such a way that it screws the game for others would actually make the RPG more enjoyable for the players, if not for all the avatars collectively.
[/QUOTE]
Firstly, the RPG model I proposed is pretty much an open sandbox; in my model, if you want to go around PKing people, you are fully able to try and do so. Of course if you do then other players who have avatars who are in the roles of ‘policeman’ are likely to see about bringing your fun, and perhaps your avatar, to an early end.
Similarly, if you go around ripping people off, mouthing off to people, being a jerk, bully, or thug - all of these actions have direct in-game consequences in the opinions of the avatars around you, which have a pretty high and moderately consistent response on your avatar’s quality of life, if the other avatars you injured get their hands on you. This is all independent of any extra end-game punishment, or anything like that; if you go around screwing the game for others; you up the odds that they’ll try to screw the game for you, no admin help needed.
Pseronally, I don’t even derive enjoyment from playing to screw others over, even in games, since I am highly aware of how much I would not enjoy the same happening to me. I mean, sure, at an abstract level I like winning and beating other people (in games) as much as the next guy, but I hate Hate HAte HATe HATE HATE losing to or being beaten by another human player. I mean if you want to see me go from pleased and happy to bitter and pissed in 1.2 seconds, screw me over in a board game. I don’t even have to entirely lose, just getting punked at all will ruin my fun.
In my pursuit of not getting punked, I start by myself refraining from punking people myself. People are nicer to you when you’re nice to them, after all. And it’s really not that hard to play nice; there are actually lots of ways to play the game that don’t “screw the game” for others.
(I’m actually so use to finding harmless entertainments for myself that I found it odd that cosmosdan went from “selfish entertaiment” to “screwing over others”. That’s just not a connection I can draw from my usual selfish entertainments.)
I have no respect for people who casually or deliberately hurt others in their pursuit of their personal desires. I see such thinking as a short-sighted and immature, based in a lack of empathy and on not recognizing how actions have consequences and what goes around does indeed occasionally come around. Still though, I didn’t build extra punishments for antisocial actions into my RPG model because I don’t think the model needs them (what which purely in-game retribution of various sorts), and because the promise of such extra-game punishments are so easily and so often used as threats to control others.
), just eternal, and yes, once they achieve heaven they just pat themselves on the back and start again with a fresh, undeveloped avatar.
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