If Timothy McVeigh did it in other countries

I put this topic here instead of GD because I’m sure there are definite answers.

What if McVeigh did what he did in another country?

I get sick of hearing non-Americans bitch and moan about the death penalty and how cruel it is. FTR, I am for it in certain cases, like this and any crime that results in the death of child no matter the reasons.

[minor self-hijack] When that American kid was caned in the Phillipines for vandalism, Americans (most, anyway) nearly went mental. I did not. Was the punishment too much for the crime? Perhaps, but IT IS THE LAW in that country. I have no sympathy here. He shouldn’t have done it, plain and simple. [end self-hijack]

I know there are many Dopers who are from or are living in other countries, so let’s hear it. Expert opinions are most welcome.

If you’re truly sick and tired of hearing people “bitch” about state sanctioned murder, you do not want to hear from me or my kind.

So why the thread? :wink:

— G. Raven

>> I get sick of hearing non-Americans bitch and moan about the death penalty

Americans bitch and moan just as much, I do not see any difference there.

I am not sure what your question is but in a country with no death penalty he would have been sentenced to life in prison. What else do you expect?

Some might consider the 1984 Brighton bombing, in which the IRA tried to blow up the British Cabinet, a comparable case. Patrick Magee received eight life sentences for the crime and the trial judge recommended that he serve at least 35 years. He was released as part of the Irish Peace Process in 1999.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/uk/newsid_301000/301223.stm

Earlier this year the Scottish court at Camp Zeist sentenced Abdel Baset al-Megrahi, 48, to life imprisonment for the Lockerbie bombing with the recommendation that he serve at least 20 years.

In English or Scottish courts, life need not mean life. It is therefore not at all obvious that McVeigh would never have been released had he been tried in another country.

I believe you’re thinking of Singapore, not the Philippines.

The U.S. is not the only country that has the death penalty, if that’s what you’re implying. Of the ten largest countries by population, 8 have the death penalty for “ordinary” crimes (Bangladesh, China, India, Japan, Nigeria, Pakistan, Russia, and the United States)[sup]1[/sup]. The other two of the top ten (Mexico and Brazil) retain the death penalty for certain “exceptional” crimes, but Brazil hasn’t actualy executed anyone since 1855(!), nor Mexico since 1937. Not knowing the laws of Mexico and Brazil, I can’t say if McVeigh’s crime would count as “exceptional” in this sense of the word. I suspect not.

Counting by the number of countries, they are about evenly between those that have used the death penalty within the last 10 years and those that have not. See http://www.uaa.alaska.edu/just/forum/f141sp97/cdeathp.html


[sup]1[/sup][sub]Whether or not we want to keep such company is another question entirely, and not appropriate to this forum.[/sub]

To add to Bibliophage’s post are a host of quotes from a good article on this subject in The Economist.

Items in italics are my own snide remarks for color commentary.

Check out the story (there’s lots more). It’s pretty good.

In Australia, most “simple” murders incur a “life” sentence, which is different from the old-fashioned “for the term of his / her natural life”. “Life” usually means, IIRC, twenty years, and then the chance of parole.

In the case of McVeigh however, he would definitely die in jail. This would be done by the judge passing one “life” sentence for the murder of each person who died in the bombing, to be served consecutively rather than concurrently. This would give him a sentence of more than three thousand years. The other way to do it is for him to be sentenced to “life” with his file marked “never to be released”. IANAL, so I’m not sure if a judge can do this on his or her own, or if it needs ministerial approval. Maybe somebody with a better knowledge of Australian criminal law can provide a better explanation.

Also, I’m pretty sure he’d be charged with some sort of terrorism offence, over and above the murders.

Well, if he were tried and convicted in Canada, he wouldn’t face the death penalty. The last execution in Canada was around 1964; the death penalty was abolished for murder around 1973, and for military offences in 1998.

There would be some procedural differences if he were tried in Canada. For example, he would be charged all at once with 168 counts of first-degree murder under the federal *Criminal Code,*instead of the 8 counts of murdering federal law-enforcement officers under U.S. federal law that he was actually convicted of. The significance of that point is that if he were not convicted of first-degree (for example, only got manslaughter as his accomplice did), there would not be any subsequent murder prosecutions under provincial law (I understand his accomplice is now facing murder charges under Oklahoma law, which would carry the death penalty.)

Assuming he were convicted of first-degree murder, he would receive 168 life sentences (Canada doesn’t have lengthy sentences added on to life sentences, which I understand can happen in the U.S.). Those sentences would be served concurrently, not consecutively (unlike the Australian situation given by TheLoadedDog).

He would not be eligible for parole for 25 years. The clock would start ticking from the time he was arrested and imprisoned (1995), not the date he was sentenced (1997). Upon the expiration of 25 years, he could apply for parole to the National Parole Board, which would decide if he should be paroled, based on factors such as the seriousness of the crime and continued threat to society. If paroled (which I would doubt, but you never know) he would remain under the supervision of federal parole officers for the rest of his life.

After 15 years in prison, he could apply to have his period of parole ineligibily reduced. The application would be to a jury, and if a majority of the jury agreed to reduce the period of ineligibilty, then he could apply to the Parole Board at that point. (Again, I doubt that would happen, but you never know.)

There is actually a mass-murder trial just beginning in British Columbia. Three individuals were recently charged for allegedly bombing the Air India flight 15 years ago. You may wish to follow that in the news for an example of how Canada deals with mass murder.

Just to follow up on what TLD said. If McVeigh had committed his crime in New South Wales, he would definitely be designated a “never to be released” prisoner. The only way he could ever be released would be to apply to have his sentence “determined” (ie, a minimum and maximum period of imprisonment set). I’m not aware of any case in which an application by a NTBR prisoner has even been accepted for hearing, let alone been successful

NTBR prisoners are kept separate from the general prison population under maximum security conditions - this year or next, they will have their own high tech super maximum security prison. IIRC, maximum security prisoners designated NTBR do not have other than incidental contact with other prisoners. They are exercised alone, and under armed guard, and I have a feeling that the protocol requires a minimum number of prison officers to be present at any time they are in physical proximity to another person.

One thing I’m not certain of, is whether McVeigh would have been tried under our state laws for murder or under our federal laws for terrorism (or some aspect of treason). Either way, he would certainly have died in gaol.

The UK’s “life” sentence is one of indeterminate length - could be as long as the convict’s actual life, more probably is not.

UK judges are able to set what’s called a “tariff” on a life sentence; that is, a recommendation for an absolute minimum number of years to be served. IIRC, the highest tariff set to date was one of 38 years, for the Russian spy Geoffrey Prime. If a tariff is set, it is possible (but exceptionally rare) for a life prisoner to be paroled before that term of years ends; more likely, the prisoner will serve at least that number of years, possibly more. I think that, if a tariff is not set, the average length of a “life” sentence is arouind seventeen years. (Which is quite an adequate deterrent for me, thank you very much.)

A McVeigh-like case over here would certainly attract a very high tariff - I believe it’s still possible for a UK judge to specify life to mean life, but I’m not sure. In practice, he’d almost certainly never be released.

The maximum sentence in Norway is 21 years. Not “life imprisonment”, but 21 years. Dangerously insane individuals can be confined to high-security psychiatric wards indefinitely, but not to prison in the usual sense of the word.

OK, if you really want to know, here are two examples of countries I have called home:

The Iceland Scenario:
You’d get 21 years. That’s it. The highest legal sentance. Message: GO BLOW UP ICELAND!

The China Scenario:
You’d be put in some horrible hell hole of a jail to rot in isolation, if you don’t count the rats as company. Then you’d be taken in front of an angry judge who would declare you a traitor and haev you carted back to your little hole in the ground.
Sooner or later, you would suddenly be marched out of the place with a sign around your neck saying: “I have betrayed the people and deserve to die!”.
Your march ends in a sports stadium filled to the brim with an enthusiastic crowd that, made up of families of the victims and anyone that hates your guts for killing those 168 people, and is lucky enough to get a ticket.
Then you are put on a stage, the charges read along with some extremely derogatory terms about you and your mother (ok, I exaggurate :D).
After this you are shot in the back of the neck, along with your co-conspiritors.

Message: Don’t even THINK about messing with China.

— G. Raven
p.s. No, really… go blow up Iceland! :smiley:

To add to what APB said, we have far, far more experience of terrorist bombings in the UK than you have in the mainland USA. Most recently, a bomb went off at the BBC headquarters in London a few weeks ago, and two bombs have gone off at my local postal sorting office in North London in the last couple of months. There hasn’t been one in which the death count has been as high as in Oklahoma City – partly, no doubt, because we have much tighter security surrounding government buildings – but the case of the Birmingham pub bombs in 1974 make an instructive comparison.

Bombs went off in two city centre pubs in Birmingham, on the same evening in November 1974, killing 21 people and injuring about 200. There was a third bomb outside a bank which failed to go off. Six men were arrested for the bombing the following day, while they were on the way to Belfast to attend the funeral of an IRA terrorist who had blown himself up with his own bomb. They all signed confessions. Several of them tested positive for handling explosives. The judge who sentenced them described the case against them – a combination of confessions, forensic and circumstantial evidence – as the most overwhelming he had ever seen in a murder trial and the men, who had each received 21 life sentences, were refused leave to appeal.

Although many people had doubts about the convictions from the outset, it was not until 1991 that it was determined conclusively that they were unsafe. The evidence that the confessions were tortured from the suspects, which had been supressed at the trial, was finally accepted by the Court of Appeal. The “explosive residue” on their hands turned out to be the plastic coating from a pack of playing cards.

Although their experiences have had a devastating long-term effect which can never be reversed, they were released, and paid sompensation for their wrongful convictions.

So when you complain about non Americans bitching and moaning about the death penalty, consider this: if we had not had the wisdom to abolish it in the UK we would have executed six innocent men for that offence, as well as a few dozen others with unsafe convictions for terrorist and non-terrorist offences over the past few decades. Of course, once they had been executed, the pressure to clear their names would have been reduced, leaving the majority of people content in the knowledge that there had been no miscarriage of justice.

And how often, pray tell, has Iceland been blown up, with such a derisory penalty for murder? Surely the murder rate must be way higher than that of the USA, with its robust approach to criminal sentencing?

Actually, that’s a great point.

The murder rate is so low it’s close to zero, although the few cases that do happen always make the news for years afterwards.

Violent crime IS increasing greatly, but we have to realize that the base number was VERY low. There was almost none of it before the nineties, so even a couple of bad incidents a year would account for a huge increase.

I must point out that most violence takes part within the small but growing drug addict community, and is thus rarely reported unless death or serious injury is the result.

— G. Raven

Ah! So the low crime rate must be due to the fact that the civilian population is so heavily armed.

[BTW, I just finished reading a very entertaining book about Iceland: Frost on My Moustache by Tim Moore]

Don’t you think you’re contradicting yourself here?
And by the way, it’s probably also worth pointing out to you that “non-Americans” constitute the vast majority of the world’s population, so it seems a very large group to make sweeping generalisations about. I’m sure there are advocates for and aainst the death penalty in all countries.

There are several famous cases here in Britain where convictions that would have resulted in the death penalty have been overturned. Similar cases also exist where the convicted was actually killed, then doubt was cast on the coviction after their death. Here’s a link for one of the more famous cases: http://members.nbci.com/Cinders2000/christie.htm
The Birmingham 6 have already been mentioned above. the American justice system isn’t infallible either - here’s a link to some examples: http://sun.soci.niu.edu/~critcrim/wrong/mike.list

In the final years before the abolition of the death penalty, it was observed that juries in Britain were far less likely to convict if they thought the defendent would face the death penalty, so concern grew that guilty individuals would be declared innocent because jurors did not want to be responsible for a death.

There have been several cases of people with severe mental disabilities facing the death penalty, despite the fact that it is extremely doubtful these individuals had the mental ability to fully understand the consequences of their actions.

Holding someone in prison prevents them from harming other citizens, so it cannot be argued that the death penalty is necessary for preventing further criminal activity, and the argument for the death penalty as a deterrent is weakened by the fact that countries with the death penalty do not generally have lower levels of serious violent crime than countries wihtout the death penalty. To many people, including me, it seems extremely immoral to kill someone purely for the purpose of revenge.

Here’s a couple of links detailing the case against the death penalty:

http://www.facts.com/cd/i00015.htm

And this page has loads of links on the death penalty in general, covering both sides of the debate in the US along with various facts and figures:
http://www.clarkprosecutor.org/html/links/dplinks.htm

Oh, and in answer to the original question, in Britain he’d have been sentenced to life imprisonment (which, as pointed out, doesn’t necessarily mean for his entire life), and the judge would have imposed a minimum amount of time he had to serve (probably at least 30 years) before his case could be reviewed. On review, he would either continue to be held in custody, or be released on parole, depending on the outcome of an assessment of how likely he would be to reoffend.

My last post was more along GD lines, but I was extremely irritated by your comments on death penalty opponents “bitching and moaning”, and I wanted to make it clear that there are sound logical and ethical arguments against the use of the death penalty.

(Slight thread hijack) On a point of information, the Republic of Ireland last Thursday passed by popular vote a constitutional referendum banning capital punishment in any and all cases for all time. (The vote was about 64% to ban, 36% not to ban). So obviously McVeigh couldn’t be executed.

We do have a crime of Capital Murder,which carries a mandatory jail sentence of 40 years, and applies where you kill certain named agents of the State (policemen, prison officers, etc). It would probably apply in the McVeigh case, so he would have been given that sentence.

Minor quibble: Life sentence prisoners are released on licence, not on parole. They remain subject to the licence for the rest of their lives and can be recalled to prison or have the licence revoked completely if it is believed that they are at risk of re-offending or if they breach the terms of the licence.

The terrorist bombers who have been released under the Good Friday Agreement are all on licence; a fact which seemed to have escaped the notice of Johnny Adair, among others.

And since most of the OP was in the spirit of GD anyway, don’t think you should worry about it.

I’m still a bit puzzled about the purpose of the OP -I can understand curiousity about what other countries do, but now that’s been clarified, does it give us a licence to “bitch and moan” about the U.S.? :wink: