The BBC says the impact will be huge.
This is all very interesting, in the historical way that death and slaughter are abstracted. Some things I heard listening to various news outlets.
The US was tipped off. Interesting, especially in light of the recent “insurgency”. Did anyone else note the news stories about rewards offered for information leading to the arrest and etc. of insurgents, some $2500, as I recall. I don’t recall hearing anything about Iraqis rushing to turn in the hated die-hard remnants of the Baathist regime. But somebody dropped a dinar on Odious and Quasi.
I reflect that the Admin is eager to portray the insurgents as die-hard Baathists utterly devoid of popular support. Yet nobody seems to be turning them in. I further reflect on the $250,000 offered for information leading to the massive stockpiles of nuclear anthrax nerve gas. Which remains, to this day, unclaimed.
december is of course correct, our fiendish plans are upturned. Truly, the entire thrust of our argument is now crushed, since these two are dead, we have nothing else to discuss, save for trivial matters of legality, chicanery, mendacity and the flinging of American lives and treasure at a chimera. How many times I have I, myself, said that the entire issue rests on our inability to capture and/or kill Saddama’s Boys?
Perhaps the Bushistas can cover all thier sins with this valiant and courageous operation, a mere 200 heavily armed Rangers overwhelming two psychopaths and a 14 year old boy. Perhaps a Japanese condom can be inflated to a dirigible.
Perhaps.
Ahh, they’re just sexing up the story to sell more papers. 
Those who are saying this makes no difference are just showing their bias against the U.S. To them, nothing is going to ‘work’.
Look: This has a very beneficial effect in four different ways:
First, it’s a big morale boost for U.S. troops. They’ve been getting shot at for a long time, and not doing much hitting back. Getting these two helps, a lot.
Second, it helps the morale of the Iraqi people, who hate these two bastards with a passion. The fact that there was jubilation in Baghdad should be indicative of what Iraqis think about this development. Imagine how the Kurds and Shiites, the two main victims of the sadistic duo, think about this.
Third, it probably damages the resistance, big time. Whatever power over the people they have had is rooted in fear - fear of direct violence, and fear that Saddam could wind up back in power one day, and people who cooperate with the U.S. today would be the first targets of reprisals. That was no doubt limiting the amount of cooperation the coalition is getting. This is a big blow to the idea that Saddam may be back one day.
Fourth, if Qusay and Uday were still running the Fedayeen and Republican Guard, this is a blow to their command-and-control. Tyrannical regimes run on cults of personality. Removing these two from the regime is going to have a big effect.
Finally, the military and occupying authorities thought is was a big enough deal to put a bounty of 15 million dollars on each of their heads. Does that sound like they were insignificant?
I suspect that anyone declaring what “will” happen as a result of this action is simply engaging in wishful thinking. Even if a final outcome matches the “bottom line,” it is liable to happen for different reasons or in different ways than have been expressed here.
On the one hand, this is a serious blow to the Ba’ath and their supporters. These guys were definitely in charge of real operations before the war and were most likely still in charge of some operations since the official end was declared. We have probably decapitated some of the resistance. (Whether we have decapitated a snake or a hydra has not been shown.)
In the same vein, the psychological victory is also strong, both that many Iraqis breathe more easily tonight and that many Ba’athists may be dejected that someone actually “ratted out” the brothers (indicating that fear of the Ba’ath is not strong enough to overcome hatred of the Ba’ath–and greed).
On the other hand, if the Ba’ath supporters have already divided into semi-autonomous cells, then we may have created a hydra that cannot, now, be contained as each “death blow” inspires new leaders and new attacks.
There is also the question of what happens to the informer. One report claims that we have already announced that we are going to pay out the $15 million (each?) for the information. No one is going to be able to hide that sort of reward, so the life of the informer (and his or her family) is now in jeopardy. If we fail to protect the informer from revenge, that information will be the last we receive.
Actually, this’ll be a good opportunity to gauge the motivations of those behind the guerilla actions. If, as you and the administration imply, they’re mostly Saddamites, things should calm down. If not, then perhaps not. Given the amount of spin coming out of Iraq, this’d be a good time to take a “wait and see” attitude before leaping to any broad conclusions.
First: it does? Have you some special pipeline to the grunt on the ground, some special empathy you would like to share? I have to wonder at your exceptional insight to the feelings of American soldiers, since you are neither a)American or b) a soldier.
2nd, as above, you are not Iraqi, Kurdish, or Sh’ite. You may be right, you may not, but you are speculating entire. No doubt they are pleased. How many days do you expect the party to last? Just the other day, we heard reports about Sh’ites lining up to volunteer for an Islamic Army, those that could take time off from chanting “Death to America!”. Are these now busily fashioning floral garlands to drape around American necks?
3rd. Ah, there’s the rub. You, like the Admin, are struck with the conviction that the recent untidiness with guerilla-like overtones is made up entirely of disgruntled Saddamites. Have you any evidence that this is so? I suspect that the primary source of the insurgency is a nativist resistance, but I have no more proof than you, and you have none.
4th…well, it can’t really be answered, it borders on delusion. What “Fedayeen”? What “Republican Guard”? Command and control of what? Ghosts? The Pink Unicorn Armored Division, currently bivoucaed in Never-never Land? If these two psychopaths were in direct command of thousands of deadly armed commandos, how come nobody was there to help them? Coffee break?
5th. It sounds like they thought they were significant. Given the clarity of Bushista decision making over the last several months, I will remain politely skeptical. But I would very much like to know who is cashing that check.
Damn, ya caught me. Yep, that’s right, I hate the U.S. What a shithole of a country. Everything it does is wrong
[quote[To them, nothing is going to ‘work’.[/quote]
Not so. Fixing all the shit that we fucked up in Iraq stands a pretty reasonable chance of working. Calling in the international community to help get that shit get fixed up would go a good ways towards working. Massive amounts of economic assistance would certainly help with the working. Implementing a plan for the gradual transfer of power to a civlian Iraqi government would be a big step towards working.
There are all kinds of things that might well “work.” None of them have very much of anything to do with killing those two particular s.o.b.'s.
Quite temporary, I’m sure. Get back to me in a month or so and let me know how happy they still are.
Also quite temporary. The Iraqi people have rather more pressing things to worry about, little things like feeding their families and not getting shot or robbed by any number of people who would be happy to shoot or rob them. Do keep us updated, though.
We shall see. Get back to me in a month or two, right?
$30 million for a few days worth of good publicity for Mr. Bush? Quite a bargain.
Well, for one thing, the country should be able to have an Olympic team without the athletes having to worry about being tortured if they lose.
What’s that old lawyer saying about if the law is on your side, argue the law, and if the facts are on your side, argue the facts . . .
I think this is the diehard anti-war crowd’s latest episode of pounding the table.
Their arguments boil down to, “well, yeah, maybe, but you don’t know fer sure, do ya”? :rolleyes:
In the meantime, comrades, we need to cook up another anti-war diatribe and hope that it sticks this time. “Looting artifacts”–done that. “Arab street rising in rage”–yeah, right. “Our soldiers will be gassed with WMDs”–didn’t happen, too bad. “Our soldiers won’t find WMDs”–so far nobody cares. “Faulty intelligence”–doesn’t seem to be working. “And we can’t catch the top bad guys”–Damn that Bush!
I like your points one and two Sam as for three and four, I have to go with Squink that we need to wait and see. Nothing I’ve seen outside of speculation and claims by the administration have convinced me that Saddam loyalist, or U&Q powers the resistance. I suspect the resistance is coming from a number of factions. If I had to guess I’d say…
Baathist Loyalist
Outsiders who came for this very purpose*
Vengeance Attacks
And Spontaneous Malcontents
The problem is that the lessons have already been learned, methods of attack proven successful. Unless things change radically on the ground, you may in fact stop number 1, but 2-4 are much harder to stop.
*I seem to recall that there was an influx of men ready to fight against America during the run-up to the invasion. If I’m wrong someone will correct me shorly.
Whereas, in contrast, you do “know for sure”?
:rolleyes: right back atcha.
Hey what happened to my coding?
I think that people looking at this rationally–as opposed to dogmatically–can come up with somewhat more persuasive reasoning than simply, “you don’t know yet, neener neener neener”. It’s ironic that you seem so assured of your own unsupported conclusions that all the benefits Sam listed are “quite temporary, I assure you, my good man”.
Oh, you mean these guys. Yeah, I wonder what ever happened to them?
Ah, but I do have perfectly good reasons. Your refusal to acknowledge any of them reflects rather poorly on you and your own knee-jerking.
I never called Sam a “good man.” Note also that I said repeatedly that we’d see who was right “in a month or two.” Since the ultimate impact of the Hussein Boys’ deaths is incapable of precise knowledge at the moment, all that one can do is explain the reasons for one’s predictions. The other critics and I have done that repeatedly, e.g.: *
Now, would you care to address any of these points, or are you still going to, as you so quaintly put it, “pound the table” and bitch that we’re just a bunch of dogmatic Bush-haters?
I thought that Desert Scorpion etc had taken in thousands of prisoners and that we had killed hundred of people in our efforts to root out pockets fo resistance. What constitues “much hitting back” ?
Since Stuffy clearly said “fight” your joke falls flat, Doghouse. It is rather more likely that he was referring to these guys who are certainly part of the problem our troops currently face and could quite possibly go back to their countries more inclined to become terrorists, given that they have seen that open conflict does not work. (I do not claim that they will become terrorists, but pretending they do not exist will not make us safer.)
The BBC says the impact will be huge.
Have you ** december**, become a timid mealy mouthed whimp?
You qoute the** BBC** in an expression of the most glorious riddance of the two most vile, raping, torturing, murdering vermin to occupy space on this good earth, and then you and the **BBC **call their untimely deaths “symbolic”?
No! Their deaths are an absolute reality. Tens of million people in Iraq have lived in abject fear of these ruthless tyrants for twenty or more years.
And now, listen to the equivocating blandering of the majority of the contributors to this thread. They prefer to expostulate with simple and soft-minded apoligies, may God bless their their putty filled heads.
While you, Milum, in your persistent style, contribute nothing to the discussion beyond content-free personal attacks on other posters.