What, you want us to wear a pink triangle armband?
Maybe you’d care to outline the threat posed by homosexuals?
Chiming in from Massachusetts, where anyone can marry whoever they love.
After the initial burst of publicity and rancor, guess what?
[wait for it…]
NOTHING!!!
The sky hasn’t fallen, pederasts aren’t attacking school children, and basically no one seems to give a crap any more. And you know what? That’s just the way it should be…
[QUOTE=SHAKES]
No
No one’s sexuality is any of your business unless you are having sex with them. Have you ever been massaged by a female massage therapist? Was she getting her jollies? Let’s suppose you visit your doctor because of an injury to your arm and his female nurse feels your bicep. Is this a sexual advance? Now suppose you are in a bar and a young lady walks up to you and feels your bicep. Is this as a sexual advance?
You have to consider context. What matters about your doctor or a police officer is how well they do their jobs, not who their sexual partners are.
You say you have a right to know someone’s sexual orientation. How would you go about securing that right? Who would enforce it?
Ah, if only this were true. For example, http://www.washingtonblade.com/2003/11-28/news/localnews/transabuse.cfm
Police harassment of transsexuals remains very much a problem (although it is getting better, at least in some places). But I hijack…
Well, I hate to be belligerent, but I don’t particularly want to forget that, because you inadvertently clued me in to the reason so many people are denying me my rights. I could honestly never see why people got so fired up over legalizing gay marriage before, because I couldn’t see how it possibly affected them.
Now I understand that it’s homophobia. In the literal sense – fear of homosexuals and homosexuality. (Yeah, I know – Duh! But really, I genuinely am that naive and dense sometimes.)
If same-sex marriage is legalized, then that means society is endorsing it. Which, I guess, means that gays will be everywhere, working the same jobs that straight people do, and might even be looking at me naked! Unlike the way things are now, where all the homos are kept in Homoslavia, or sequestered in the Gay Compounds throughout San Francisco and the East Village.
As yosemite and Excalibre have already pointed out: that dystopian future is already here, my friend! Gays are all around you! All the time! They’re in your schools, your doctor’s offices, your locker rooms! At work, I share a bathroom with straight men! And it’s only through remarkable self-control and willpower that I’m able to keep from spending hours in there, just hoping to get a glimpse at another man’s penis! Because that’s all I think about, 24/7!
People are professionals, and adults can usually differentiate between sexual and non-sexual situations. Yes, even gay ones. If you’re at a doctor or dentist and are being treated by a female nurse, do you automatically get a stiffy? If not, why do you assume gays are any different? Are you just so incredibly hot that no gay man would possibly be able to resist you?
Why does it make you feel uncomfortable if your doctor is gay? Or if your arresting officer (what is it you’re doing, anyway?) is gay? Or if you’re in a locker room with a gay person?
Because you feel they’re invading your privacy.
I hope I don’t have to spell it out for you.
How should gay people be required to identify themselves? A pink triangle on the lapel, or through some kind of national homo registration? You know, gay marriage is still illegal in most of the country, and that still doesn’t change the fact that your doctor could already be gay. If that makes you uncomfortable, you’re already welcome to just ask him.
The most heartbreaking thing about your argument is that the “don’t ask don’t tell” policy is actually the exact opposite of what you want. If gay people are forced to live in secret and be ashamed of being gay, then you’ll never know if that guy who’s handing you the soap is one of them!
But if we’re given the same rights as everyone else, then we’re going to be more open about being gay, and it’ll be easier to pick us out to discriminate against at your leisure. Or ideally, people would eventually figure out that it’s just not that big a deal.
Yeah, it’s going to be tough to spot the gay ones from the straight ones. Welcome to my freaking world. You think you’ve got it tough? Imagine being a gay guy with absolutely zero gaydar.
Yes, exactly, thats why I like “Don’t ask don’t tell” ignorance is bliss.
Well because in my life I’ve known five gay people who I THOUGHT were my friends. Turns out everyone of them turned out to be corrupt in one way or another; wheather it be trying to seduce a 14yo on an internet chat room or trying to feel me up while I sleep. Now, I can get over the fact that I got felt up and all that; its really not going to scar me for life or anything. But what really has me miffed is I thought these people were my friends and as it turns out I was just a SUCKER.
Now I fully realize that these five people I knew are hardly a representitive of all gay people everywhere, I know. But still, with those kinds of numbers you’d be hard pressed to get me to believe that at least 1 out of 5 are corrupt in some way shape or form. Sorry, that just the way I feel. And no I don’t have any scientific data to back that up.
So yes I would feel it to be an invasion of privacy.
No, I’m not sugesting that we use Nazi-style enforcement here. Just simple things like when you join a gym and your filling out the application; it should ask “sexuall orientation” also as a propieter of said gym I should be allowed to decline the application due to this alone in order to satisfy the MAJORITY of my clientel.
Now weather these feeling are founded in sanity or not isn’t the point. The point is, that they are valid feelings. Which I’m pretty sure I’m not alone on. Just like there are plenty of females out there who refuse to goto male OB/GYN doctors. I mean, why’s that? Do these women REALLY think the doctor’s is get’n his jollies?
Keep digging that hole Shakes…
If you can open your Heteros Only gym, denying homosexuals the right to join because you don’t like the sort of people they have sex with, then can I open an Athiest-and-Agnostic Only gym because I don’t like having judgemental Christians hanging around while I exercise, or witnessing in the changerooms?
Would you take offence if the situation was reversed and you were denied access to public facilities, stores or professions based on a personal trait that you have no control over? Would you be troubled by needing to conceal your life partner from the management at the gym or risk losing your membership?
I think you’re insane to suggest that the MAJORITY of your cliental would support this type of discrimination. Normal people don’t get their knickers in a twist at the idea that homosexuals are looking at them. If you are secure in yourself, why would it matter to you that Joe Homo is thinking you’re kinda cute?
Don’t you check out girls every day who would never in a million years consider dating you? Would you support their choice to have you banned from their hangouts because you’re not good looking enough/rich enough/their type and the knowledge that you’re getting your jollies because you’re in a room with them creeps them out? If you become a doctor, are you going to need some “private time” to cool off in after each consultation with a young female who sees you as no more or less than a professional physician with the training to help her with any health issues she has?
No, it’s just ignorance. It forces people like me to live in shame and seclusion simply because it makes people like you uncomfortable.
That sucks, seriously. I think both of the things you mention are reprehensible, and I’ll be right there with you shouting down anyone who tried to come in and defend them as justifiable in any way. I can’t honestly say that if I’d had the same experience, I wouldn’t be biased.
But still, you acknowledge that those people aren’t representative of gays as a whole. So why is it okay to deny me the same rights, including the right to privacy, as anyone else? It’s not directly analogous, but if you’d been felt up by an Arab, would that make it okay for gyms to discriminate against Arabs?
I’ll tell you that I’ve met far more than just five homosexuals who I’d consider “corrupt,” but that still doesn’t mean that I’m willing to bite the bullet and give up my basic human rights, just because of the problems of those people.
That’s completely unacceptable. That’s discrimination based on sexual orientation, and that’s wrong and unfair. You’re saying that your right to privacy is more important than mine. Why should I be denied the use of that gym just because my being a homosexual makes some of the other clientele uncomfortable? Why not do this: have the proprietor of said gym put an entry on the form that says, “Are you uncomfortable sharing facilities with homosexuals?” If you answer yes, then he can point out that there are probably gay men using the gym, and you’re welcome to go elsewhere if you have a problem with it.
I’m not saying they’re not valid, and I’m not saying that you’re the only one who feels this way. I’m simply saying that they’re not valid excuses for invading my privacy, and denying me the same rights that you have. And yes, there are plenty of people who refuse to go to opposite-sex doctors, and they’re well within their rights to do so. You’re well within your rights to ask your same sex-doctor if he’s gay. You’re not within your rights to demand that he tell you, though.
It’s really, genuinely crappy that you met some gay people who betrayed your trust. I have nothing to do with those people except for one trait that we happen to share. I have done nothing to deserve being treated like a second-class citizen.
One of the primary reasons why strip searches are done by the same sex, and male doctors call in a female to be present under certain procedures, is because of our traditionally patriarchal culture and also the litigious nature of modern society. Think about it: when the doctor calls in a female to assist during a gynecological exam, that wouldn’t prevent him from being aroused. Rather, it serves to provide a seemingly safer space. A male being examined by another male police officer or doctor, doesn’t face the same power dynamics that a woman in our culture does.
That being said, I still don’t understand why SHAKES is so afraid of gays that he feels they should all advertise their orientation openly to him. Even if they did find you attractive, who cares?
–OK, I should have refreshed my browser before starting this post, as I see you’ve met five gay men who betrayed your trust. However, I think you are using a big brush to generalize and paint all gay people into one big, erroneous abstraction. Perhaps you should remind yourself of the many straight people who have let you down. Did you generalize their actions this way?
Look at the straight men and women involved who abused their power in the Abu Ghraib scandals and also remind yourself of the horrific beatings, sodomy with broomsticks, etc., that have been perpetrated against blacks by straight white officers. You have a reasonable expectation to be treated fairly by all you meet. Knowing their sexual orientation does not change this fact.
Of course it is. To you. Because you’re an oppressor, and it helps you put down the oppressed.
Liar.
I don’t believe your tale of woah for a second. You, the drunken gay basher, just happen to have “gay friends” who conform to every bad gay basher stereotype of homosexuals. Not bloody likely.
I can’t imagine anyone who is gay would be friends with such a brazen gaybasher as yourself.
And in any case, why should your homophobia – your pathetic smallminded fear – cancel out my RIGHT to equality under the law? Why should the fact that in your drunken stupor you think some guy felt you up (ha, right) deny me the right to legally bind my life to the person whom I love?
Why is your pathetic insecurity more important than my innate rights as a citizen?
How terrible does a person have to be to consider the heebie-jeebies a reasonable reason to persecute innocent human beings?
No, they aren’t representative of all gay people everywhere, which is why you don’t have “scientific data”. You know, prejudice that comes from experience can be hard to shake, but until you decide to act on the knowledge that your own experience is very much unusual, you’ll be stuck with that prejudice. The world isn’t going to change to accommodate your prejudice, and with some soul-searching, you’ll probably find that you’re capable of letting it go.
The question is, then, where are you poor straight people going to go to the gym? Are there any gyms left that aren’t mostly gay?
You know, the idea that all feelings are “valid” just means you shouldn’t feel guilt for how you feel. It doesn’t mean that acting on those feelings is valid. You’re right, they are not founded on sanity, and any plan to act on them would thus be, by definition, insane. Your feelings of fear towards gay people are “valid” in the same sense that the feelings of a white person who hates black people are still “valid”. However, that doesn’t confer any sort of right to act on them, nor any legitimacy for those actions.
It’s to have a safe, comfortable environment. And, you know, to have someone who knows what it’s like to receive a pelvic exam be the person administering it? If I had to deal with a gynecological exam, you can bet it’d be done by a woman. Why? Has nothing to do with anyone “getting their jollies”. It’s because a guy doesn’t know what it’s like if the duck lips are cold and you jab too hard with the cotton swab. If I got anything delicate done to me, you can bet I’d try for someone who had been on the receiving end before.
I wouldn’t care about the gender identity of the person strip searching me at the gay wedding as long as fried chicken was served at the reception.
For folks who do care about such matters, don’t go to the wedding.
Don’t strip naked in the gym locker room. Don’t use communal showers. Don’t fully disrobe when visiting the doctor. Don’t cause the police to strip search you. Don’t post drunk.
Make choices in life with which you are comfortable, rather than make second class citizens of other people.
They’re afraid of similarities?
Thread premise making brain hurt. Must eat fried chicken with black friend to calm nerves, then visit blind doctor.
spectrum, are you saying this based on some past history with SHAKES, or are you just flying off half-cocked again? Nothing he’s said in this thread warrants being called a “gaybasher.” I’m taking what he says at face value, and based on what he’s said in this thread, your little tirade is uncalled for.
The OP wants gays to be forced to identify themselves. He wants it to be legal to ban gays from certain places just because they’re gay.
This is seriously discriminatory and unpleasant. I think “gaybashing” is a good descriptive term for it. It is clear that spectrum is not actually accusing the OP of going around and physically beating up gays.
Alright dude listen, I think you’re interjecting way too much here. I’ve been on this board for almost three years. I make ONE drunken post (on the 4th of july, no doubt) and you got me labeled as a “drunken gay basher”
Now, who’s stereotyping who?
If you’re really intrested in helping the gay plight maybe you should do the gay community a favor by keeping to yourself if thats the best you can do.
Actually to SolGrundy you bring up some good points that I admitably can’t debate with. (actually, this is the point were I remember why I stay out of GB in the first place.
)I think prehaps maybe I took it a bit too far with the whole gym membership thing. That is to say with the law the way it is now By that I mean if say like an owner of a bar wants to refuse service to black people than I think he should be able to do so. Now, personally I would never go to a bar like this because I don’t agree with this sort of mentality nor do I want to hang with people who do. But that’s a whole other debate all together.
I’ll also agree with the I have the right to ask my doctor if he’s gay and he has the right to not tell. However I would HOPE there would be consequinces involved if the doctor lied and said he wasn’t gay when in fact he was.
One thing that still gets me though about homosexuallity is the fact that we’re seemingly treating it like people who are gay are born into a race itself like Asian, Indian ect…Shouldn’t we instead be treating this as if it were a sickness like cancer or Autism ect…? And don’t WE as a society have a moral obligation to try and find a cure for it? Which btw I think marriage does in a way normalize it and takes away from the fact that maybe we need to be more proactive in finding a “cure” for this. I mean really, I think with the proper research it would be great if a hundred years from now instead of gay people having to go through all this turmoil can take a pill or whatever to make them better. And by better I mean the way nature (God/Darwin/natrual order of the universe) intended it to be.
Alright guys I’m not to proud to admit when I’m out classed. My debating skills are poor at best. Everytime I come in here I ALWAYS end up regreting it. So I’ll just go ahead and conceed that you guys have made better points than mine. I’ll continue to pop my head in just for the heck of it though.
SHAKES said:
You ARE aware that in the past homosexuality WAS treated like a sickness, with horrifying and cruel results?
Hooboy. :rolleyes:
Yes, because you seem to be displaying the combination of egocentrism and fear of the homophobe(in the true sense of it being a phobia). I have a supreme doubt to your five gay friends existence, and I doubt you are interesting enough to attract the interest of the opposite sex much less the same one.
Gay people do have standards.
Stop flattering yourself.
Yes, also we should be developing a similar pill to cure left-handed people and those with ginger hair. Bloody deviants.
Oh and I also don’t believe your too-convenient anecdote about your five gay friends.
Your debating skills aren’t top notch, even when you’re sober, but if we set these aside, what you believe is very worrying.
You think people should be allowed to refuse service to black people? Do you realise just how bigoted that is? I’d leave out the stuff about race if I were you, it just makes you look more like a redneck.
On the off chance that you’re sincere, not intentionally being bigoted, and just haven’t given this much thought, consider this:
People’s sexual orientation isn’t any of your business. They have the right to do whatever the hell they want with their lives, and they’re under no obligation to tell you what their orientation is, or to tell you truthfully. It’s none of your business. Got it?