IF we allow gay marriages..(a different take. (I think))

Great Debates
61

Uh, Cerri didn’t say anything about hands. She said:

So which part of that was wrong, and what does any of it have to do with how many hands most people are born with?

I would be very curious to see which poll or study came up with a .1% figure for homosexuals. Even the most conservative estimates I’ve seen had numbers many times more than that.

Uh, no, see, by her logic it’s perfectly normal for a child to be born with some sort of unusual feature that does not negatively affect his or her health.

I have “Grecian feet” – my second toes, on both feet, are longer than my big toes. This is a common trait in my family, but it’s my understanding that it’s fairly unusual. I don’t know what the percentages are, but I don’t think it’s much more common than homosexuality. In other words, it might be considered “abnormal” in a statistical sense. However, it’s not a disease or a handicap. The only problems I know of that a long second toe can cause a person are due to social factors. These may be direct (“Hey, you’ve got weird feet, you freak!”) or indirect (some people wind up with podiatric trouble caused by wearing shoes designed for a different foot shape), but either way it’s not the “abnormal” toes per se that are to blame.

62

“This is Bob. Bob is straight. Very straight indeed. That’s because not long ago, the big old nelly made a quick phone call, and got a free brochure for Heterol, the new pill for natural straight enhancement. And what did he get? Why, he ended his 15-year relationship with Ted, and now lives with a very statisfied ex-lesbian. He got the very thing that makes a man really successful: heterosexuality, If you’re interested in learning more about natural straight enhancement, call 1-800-HETEROL.”

63

Aww, Eve, goddammit! Why do you have to outshine me by being so damn much wittier than I am?

64

If you think 99.9% of the world is straight, you’re even less informed than I previously thought.

A child with no hands is handicapped. They cannot perform basic functions that those with two hands can. They are physically hindered and incapable of doing many of the things that you (sadly) and I take for granted.

How does my homosexuality in any way inhibit me, physically or biologically, from leading a normal life?

In what way am I handicapped?

Prove it or stuff it. Your insinuations are becoming increasingly offensive and out of bounds.

65

Why does “different” mean “awry” to you? Different is just different. Do you want to “cure” people who are taller or shorter than average height?

66

Whoa dude, your issues meter is in the red and screeching!

I told you there were lots of gay Dopers. Gays are not just some group “out there,” different from us “in here.”

And guess what else? Whether someone is born gay or later choose to be gay or something in between is none of your beeswax either. Got it? When it comes to sex, people can be whatever they want to be or do whatever they want to do so long as it doesn’t hurt someone, especially someone unwilling.

67

[Vancome Lady]

Cha… ya know what? Uh UH!

[/Vancome Lady]

See… again there are those standards I was talking about.

A man who gets loaded, posts, writes his initial poor expression off because he was tipping back “brewskis” :rolleyes: and then follows up with posts just as inane and increasingly bigoted I somehow doubt would even travel in my circles.

See… one of my requirements for a man is that he can write a coherent sentence that is generally correctly spelled. You would consistently fail that. Then another dealbreaker is that he would have to read a book on a regular basis. I have little doubt that you would fail the reading requirement.

Standards are good. I hope women have standards so you don’t get a chance to reproduce… if you’ve ever been out of your parent’s basement long enough to deal with a real woman without coming off like Harold from The Stand. Somehow I don’t think you have dealt with a real woman anymore than your perspectives come from any real reality other than fears and bigotry.

68

So, obviously you survived after your removal from SolGrundy, formed pseudo sentience, and are now posting on the board. Is there a point inherent in that?

69

My daughter has two mothers and a father. Frankly, I think bringing a child into the world with only two parents is abhorrent and should be banned. :rolleyes:

70

SHAKES, buddy, pal, lets talk about sexuality.

Heterosexuality, homosexuality, bisexuality are not hard and fast categories that
must be rigorously pinned on people. People, normal people, people who love and
live just like you, do fluctuate on how they self-identify their sexuality. There are
gay men who have had sex with women. There are lesbian women who have had
sex with men.

There are three factors in which people express their sexuality:

  1. Their behavior.
  2. Their self-identification.
  3. Their emotional satisfaction with their sexual partners.

There are self-identified lesbians who, as one author put it, “like to fuck men.”
As there are seemingly bisexual men who, enjoy sex with women, but find love and affection only with men.

Sexuality is fluid and changing. Yes, it is determined by birth on how you desire
to find love, partnership, commitment and sexual fulfillment. But people vary
within their own sexuality. I am a confirmed heterosexual male. I love breasticles
and vaginas. I can’t imagine liking the penis, nor the hot-gay sex. But I have
had enjoyment kissing other men and sharing initimate-non-sexual friendships
with men. What does that make me?

I self identify with heterosexuality. I enjoy, in the vast majority of my behavior,
heterosexual sex. I find emotional satisfaction with women. So I am a
straight man.

Society places a burden on people to be, exclusive of all else, heterosexual.
Women are told to have children and raise them. Men are told to support children
and their wives. Some people do not feel, in their heart of hearts, that the path
society proscribes for them is right for them. Thus, women do not have to
bear children. Men can be confirmed bachelors.

Are you sure you want to force everyone to conform to society’s expectations?
What might society force you to do that you know you don’t want to do?
Do you want to live in a society where people are forced to change who they are
to conform?

Now lets talk about gender separation. Men and women currently use different
bathrooms and other private facilities. In the past, and currently in other cultures,
men and women have shared facilities. We don’t in the Western World mostly.
Why? What is so dangerous that men and women can’t share a bathroom or a
shower?

I would suggest that our society places a huge hypocritical puritanical view on
sex and sexuality. Fox News decries Janet Jackson’s breast popping out. But
they show Temptation Island on the other network. What?

Sex is natural and wonderful. It can also be used to hurt your self and others.
Is it really that hard to explain to a child what sex is? If it is, have you explored
what sex means to you? If not, why don’t you?

And I am certainly not saying that sexual ethics and morality are wrong. I am
saying the exact opposite. People need to figure out what sex means to them
and how they deal with it. If sex should wait until marriage, wonderful. If sex
should be with only those you love, fantastic. If sex should be with whomever
says yes, great, but use protection please.

So what if a gay man hits on you. Say what I say, “I am flattered, but no thank
you.” See, no big deal. Why are you so worried that a gay man will be attracted
to you? How about all those women who have hurt you as well? No one sex or
sexuality is entirely pure or evil. People are people.

If it matters to you, homophobia is directly linked and caused by sexism. When
men devalue women as human beings and place only their reproductive and
sexual abilities as worthwhile, people of non-heterosexual identities are also
devalued. Men who act like women, which according to this viewpoint these
men are acting like women, are evil because they upset the balance of
power away from hyper-masculine heterosexual men towards feminine qualities.
Feminine qualities are bad since women are bad. If you value women more than
just baby machines, then hating gay men is essentially hating women. Are women
more than sex objects? Can women be able beings with their own will?

I hope you think about this. If you want to discuss it more, I would be happy
to hash it out.

-BytopianDream.

71

How, precisely? Everything works, biologically. If I want kids bad enough, I’d be physically capable of … doing that gross stuff that is required to make one.

72

Yeah… turkey basters are kinda gross.

:wink: :smiley:

73

Wait wait wait. You’re saying that most people are born heterosexual? But I thought you just said orientation was a choice! Which is it? You say you didn’t choose to be heterosexual? Prove it. No, you can’t just tell me that you don’t remember choosing to be hetero. That’s anecdotal. You have to prove it.

SHAKES, I tried to meet you halfway because it sounded to me like you were actually trying to figure stuff out. In response, you went from saying that homosexuality is a disease that we should be putting more effort into wiping out instead of just casually accepting, to conceding hey no wait I didn’t mean that I meant that it’s just like a pimple on your ass that you should be happy to have lanced away.

This is just tiresome; the exact same stuff is getting said over and over again, and people keep responding with intelligent, calmed, reasoned answers over and over again, and they keep getting ignored. If you want to see these other threads, just do a search on all posts by SolGrundy, because like an idiot I’ve taken the time to respond to just about every damn one of them.

Being born with one hand is, unfortunately, a liability. Being a homosexual is not. There are exactly two inherent disadvantages two being gay:

  1. It’s more difficult to recognize potential romantic interests.
  2. Having to put up with a fucked up society that constantly tells you you’re wrong for being different and thinks its okay to deny you a basic level of respect, dignity, and human rights.

The first, everybody has to deal with in one way or the other. The second is a problem that people like you need to deal with, not people like me.

I’ll make one final attempt: Think about the first time you fell in love, assuming you have. Think about that feeling, where you spent every moment thinking about her. Where everything that happened to you when you were apart, you wanted to tell her about. Where all the time you did spend with her just flew by and every moment ended too soon. Where you wanted to be a better person just so you could make her happy. And where you were happy all the time because she made you feel better about yourself.

Now think about somebody coming in and telling you that that’s wrong. Because it’s “unnatural.” Because it makes them feel uncomfortable. And telling you that you’re perverted. And reducing it all to being just about sex and lust and blow-jobs. And then telling you you need to take a pill to just make that all go away.

And then ask yourself who’s “sub-human.”

74

Which is exactly why we need to start discriminating against those damn infertile heterosexual couples. They can’t have babies, so what the hell are they doing together, anyway? God put us on this Earth to make children, everything else is unnatural! Oh, moan, moan, moan, “they’re in love.” Cry me a river. Next thing you know, they’re going to be saying it’s okay to partner up with your sister, or with animals! And those damn inferts are going to be feeling me up when I’m asleep or looking at me when I’m taking a shower!

75

Heh, well SolGrundy, it’s funny, because thats exactly the way I see it from my POV.

I keeep telling everyone that being gay is NOT normal and everybody gets in a tizzy and wants to call me a bigot. Whatever, I’ve always treated everybody with nothing but respect no matter WHAT their sexual orientation is.

So yeah guys I guess I am a bigot for the simple fact that I think it would be great to be able to cure people with the gay-sickness or whatever you want to call it. Come to think of it, I guess I’m even MORE of a bad guy for wanting a cure for cancer, AIDS and every other disease out there. Damn! look out Satan, there’s a new king in town.

76

hehe, gay sickness.

Yep, you continue with your scientific research into homosexuality and come back when you have the cure.

77

Yeah, didn’t see that one coming. This is the part where you flip on your back and try to make yourself out to be the victim, a martyr as one of the last fighters against the Gay Agenda, taking one on the chin for the sake of morals and decency. Geez, are all of y’all following a script here?

You are not the victim here. You are not the target of violence for being straight. You do not have people advocating discrimination against you. You do not have people denying you your rights. The only similarity between you and me is that you also have people telling you that you’re wrong. Except that people have reasons to explain why you’re wrong, which you are either unable or unwilling to counter.

Several people have raised legitimate points trying to explain to you how being gay is not a “sickness.” How cancer, and AIDS, and “every other disease” out there either kills people or makes them unable to function. Being homosexual does not. Do you attempt to come up with any coherent response to that? No, you just call yourself a bigot. Do you expect anyone to argue with that? Or are we just supposed to feel sorry for you because you have opinions you can’t justify?

You say that you always treat people with respect; I don’t see that at all. You advocate treating me and every other homosexual like we’re diseased and that you’re justified in discriminating against us and denying us the right to love who we love and to raise families. All on the basis that it makes you uncomfortable, and that it’s “not normal.” Nobody said it was “normal.”

The “gay-sickness or whatever you want to call it?” I want to call it my living my own damn life without having to deal with the fear and idiocy of other people. And damn anybody who wants to deny that from me.

78

Do you know what “normal” actually means? I don’t think anyone here is debating that homosexuality is the norm. My daughter, while she was born with two feet, was not born with 10 toes, or all the ligaments, bones, arteries that a human normally has. She is not normal. Should she not be allowed to marry her fiance? Is it anybody elses business? Why? Government should get out of the marriage business. In the United States it should either recognize all unions, or none. Why? Because we get all excited just about this time of year, every year, about freedom, liberty, justice for all. When did gay people stop being part of all?

79

Cure me from what? From being myself? From who I am? From who I love? From my relationship, which is just as healthy and nurturing and loving as any other in this world?

How does my homosexuality harm me?

Will you just answer the fucking question? Or are you just trolling?

HOMOSEXUALITY IS NOT A DISEASE. IT DOES NOT HURT PEOPLE. IT DOES NOT IMPAIR BIOLOGICAL PROCESSES.

So what the hell are you talking about?

80

What’s “not normal”? Being left-handed, or red-haired, or six-foot-three isn’t normal. As we’ve pointed out before. What’s so special about this kind of “not normal”?

You still have not explained why you consider being gay a “sickness”. What’s sick about it? Why does it need curing? I certainly don’t feel sick. What makes you think you have some right to “fix” me? Tell me how I’m broken.

How is being gay comparable to those things? Is my queerness going to metastasize and spread into my lungs?

You’re not Satan, SHAKES, you’re a pathetic little bigot who resorts to playing the martyr when you’ve been shown to have nothing to say. If you can come up with any justification for gayness being a handicap - one that doesn’t apply to, say, left-handedness or having red hair - then share it. Otherwise we’re just going to conclude you’re an idiot who has no reasons behind his beliefs.