If we could "cure" (or create!) homosexuality, would it be wrong? & if it went away?

This is in response to this article regarding the outrage of some about scientific experiments to see if gay sheep can be made “ungay.”

Simply put, it’s not unlikely that in the near future, all sorts of things will be “changeable” by science, and if homosexuality has a significant genetic component the prospect of it being screened for, and screened out, isn’t unthinkable, nor is the possibility of medical treatments that cause gay people to become straight (and, probably, vice-versa!).

That means we are going to have to confront the ethics of providing parents with the ability to choose not to have gay kids, or even to allow gay people to choose make themselves straight (or straight people make themselves gay). It’s a pretty startling issue. I’d like to raise and debate some of those things here.

Would it be unethical to offer to gay people a treatment that would make them straight? As a generally liberty-minded guy, I wouldn’t support the need for anyone to have such a proceedure done, but I would also find it hard to justify banning such a treatment from those that want it.

Would it be wrong if, owing to treatments like this, homosexuality nearly or even entirely vanished from the human population (let’s stipulate that this is due to two factors only: large percentages of parents choosing not to have gay kids, and some gay people choosing to become straight. We could imagine horrible coercion to force gays straight, but this sort of thing is probably unlikely in the US at least, and we shouldn’t easily confuse it with more voluntary changes)?

The question I’m asking is, perhaps going to be misinterpreted. A common answer, no doubt, will be “of course it’s wrong: THERE’S NOTHING WRONG WITH HOMOSEXUALITY” and that of course has some merit: it might well be that wanting to eradicate homosexuality is wrong irregardless of whether or not homosexuality being around is important or not.

But I think because most of us already agree with the idea that homosexuality is fine, the more interesting question is more: does it matter if homosexuality is around or not? If we might face the prospect of it vanishing, would that be a bad thing?

The only major current debate of this sort I can think of is over deafness and deaf culture. We are not too far away from the point where deafness as a condition could be substantially and perhaps near totally ended in most medically developed western populations. Many deaf people, of course, regard this prospect as tantamount to genocide.

This isn’t a perfect matched example of course. I for instance, do think that deafness is at least a material disadvantage in life and wanting to cure it in most people is not particularly horrible (and we can have that debate, because it’s by no means an easy issue), but I don’t think the same of homosexuality: homosexuality is no particular disadvantage in life (outside of the conditions of how society regards gays.

But the deaf example at least provides some sense of a guide as to how a group of people with a particular very powerful identity that they have experienced as natural and they did not choose might be horrified at the idea of no more members of their group being born, or even of people who identify as being part of that group suddenly being able to decide to leave it and in fact doing so. It’s a very strange thing to be confronted with, especially if it is the case that the group would vanish not because anyone destroyed it, but because everyone either chose to leave, or never came into existence that way in the first place.

And of course the final interesting issue would be: if we could medically change someone’s sexuality, would you try it? I myself would be tempted. It’s a truly fascinating idea. I’m a man attracted to women. But you know, I think if someone could indeed throw a switch and make me attracted to men, that would be a pretty fascinating thing to have happen to me, because it’s something that’s very hard to imagine. A basic component of my identity, suddenly changed into something else. What would that even be like?

Probably not very different at all, once the novelty wore off.
I can’t object to the science of such research, since I like science for its own sake; my primary concern is the potential for a resurgence of violence against homosexuals just as (in some cultures) their presence was starting to be shrugged off as no big deal. If it becomes something you (or your parents) could “fix” but chose not to, I can’t imagine how that’s going to encourage a positive reaction.
The subject has been addressed in film. There was a TV movie in 1997 called The Twilight of the Golds in which a woman has a genetic test performed on her fetus and discovers it will very likely be homosexual, then we’re treated to two hours of arguments and angst and “are you sure you want to have this baby? Not that there’s anything wrong with it…” When Rosie O’Donnell showed up, I lost interest in the central issue, figuring that that there was no chance the movie was going to end with the woman aborting, else O’Donnell would never have agreed to appear in it in the first place. The woman’s uptight husband left her and she had the baby anyway, which is a whole other controversial issue best analyzed in another made-for-TV movie. :smiley:

We could all switch to bisexuality, and double our chances of getting a date.

Our ethics just never seem to have a chance to catch up with our technological capabilities! It’s a fascinating possibility though. If it turns out that certain factions of the population have to abandon their contention that homosexuality is a choice (and a sinful one at that), then they may be the ones who argue against such a treatment as “playing God.”

That’s not likely of course, or they would have tried to put a stop to our intersex interventions in newborns long ago. We still haven’t figured out how to distinguish between “birth defects” and “natural variety of human form.”

If treatments were available to go in either direction, homo or hetero, then I think the ethical issues are less complex. And it does raise some interesting possibilities, especially if the treatments are only “effective” while you’re on your meds. “Dear, did you remember to put on your patch this week?”

Or, as Apos suggested, “Give me two of the rainbow boxes please. I’ve got a getaway planned to San Francisco this weekend.”

If this technology comes to fruition, is there any doubt that we’ll eventually be doing exactly that?

Frankly, I’m not sure how successful a purely medical intervention could be and I don’t want to overplay it too much. In animals, it might all come down to pheramone signals, and you either like males or females depending.

But in human sexuality, while I think it’s pretty clear that there is a genetic component in terms of being gay or straight, ones particular sexuality develops via a pretty long process of bonding to certain sorts of images, fetishes, and so forth. Which side of the hill, gay or straight, you tumble down on might be determined genetically, but once you’re tumbling down one side or the other, it may not be as easy to tumble back up and down another side in humans. Once you develop a habitual arousal response to viewing images of men’s six packs, for instance, there has to be some sort of bonding effect to that in and of itself that’s not going to simply change just because there is some gay/straight switch to switch.

WRT deafness, I think if my parents told me I was supposed to be born deaf but they had a procedure done so I can hear normally, I’d thank them.

If I were straight and my parents told me as an adult I was supposed to be born gay but they had the procedure done, I’d probably thank them. Probably. I have a feeling most people would agree.

If I were born gay (and I was, AFAIK) and my parents told me later I was supposed to be straight but they thought if would be fun to make me gay, I’d be pissed.

That’s not quite fair though. It really sucked growing up gay. But if parents were in the habit of choosing to make their kids gay then we’d probably live in a society that was far more accepting of it and kids would hopefully be raised without a lot of the self-loathing, confusion and fear about it.

Making everyone bisexual might be interesting. I wonder what effect that would have on marriage?

Now if you could just take a pill and turn gay or straight for a week, I’m not sure about the ethics of that. If you liked it, and presumably that would be the whole point, then you’d want to keep taking the drug. Wouldn’t that be just like turning someone into an addict?

There have been a few articles lately, which I am too lazy at the moment to track down, about people specifically altering embryos to cause disabilities, deafness, dwarfism, etc in their children, as hated as homosexuals are in some quarters, would it not be a kindness to ensure the child was not before he was born?

I tend to agree. Most of our ethics of civil rights revolves around the idea of choice. As a society we generally feel no obligation to “tolerate” a minority group which has “chosen” whatever his identity is. I think this is completely wrongheaded, personally, but it’s where the culture is. As soon as an identity becomes seen (rightly or wrongly) as a “choice” it loses a lot of social protection. This is why gay rights gained enormous ground when it started emphasizing the immutability and inborn nature of homosexuality. Simply arguing that you have the right to have sex with whomever you want tends to be unpersuasive to a depressingly large fraction of the population.

I think that’s an abuse of the term addict, because it basically implies anything desirable is addictive. I like seeing well, and am very irritated if I can’t find my glasses; am I addicted to my glasses ?

Apos - thanks for starting this thread, it’s a fascinating topic.

As you say there are a several elements to this issue (assuming any of them ever become scientifically possible):

  1. If you could screen for gayness in a fetus (namely to inform your choice to abort or not) should you and would you?

  2. If you could alter someone’s sexuality before they were born from gay to straight (or potentially vice versa) should you and would you?

  3. If you could alter someone’s sexuality as an adult (especially your own), should you and would you?

  4. Same as 3 but in a temporary capacity - would you take a “gay for the weekend” pill?

I think 1 is a firm no to should as I can think of no reason why you would want to efectively kill a child simply because it was gay. It’s not a disability and (other than the way people in society treat gays) it has no fundamental malus to it, especially now that gays are far more accepted in most western societies and even having children of their own through a variety of methods (so you can’t even argue that if all people were gay humanity would die out). Would people choose to do it? Certainly there would be people who would do this, however I think the kinds of people who really believe it ethical to kill a child for being gay would be the same people who wouldn’t conscience abortion (namely Christians). Muslims may be interested in this option as Islam isn’t opposed to abortion and is firmly opposed to homosexuality (even in liberal muslim countries), and the same for Hindus as well.

For 2, this is a much more difficult area - do we as a species wish to “cure” or “eradicate” homosexuality. The jury is still out on what does cause gayness, although the current theory is that it is a genetic predisposition which is triggered by an event or series of events in life as sexuality comes to assert itself. If this is the case you could simply remove the predisposition, and bang - no more naturally gay people. Should we do this? Well again I’m not clear on why it’s necessary or preferable. The US isn’t the most homo-friendly western country, but here in Europe public opinion towards homosexuality and the rights of gays to exist and live as they wish have moved masssively forward in the last 50 years. Some countries (the UK being one of them) have gone from having homosexuality/sodomy as a crime to there being shows where gays go around improving the dress sense of straight men in as little as a few decades. If you think about it socially this is a very big step, although for the UK I think it’s easy to argue that the law lagged behind what people felt about homosexuality for quite a long time (there are anecdotes of gay couples existing and being accepted by their local community and families as far back as the 1930s, although that must be balanced by the huge numbers of hate crimes and gay-related murders that occured then and now). In short I think by the time we reach the point we could do this scientifically the consensus will be that it would be no more right to cure homosexuality than it would be to cure someone of being black, red haired or a woman. Again, the same may not apply in other cultures and countries that don’t hold the same views, so whilst Europe would say no to ‘should’ there would be plenty of nations/individuals that happily would.

2a - there would still remain the issue, however, of same sex attraction. Even people who are predominantly straight experience same sex attraction at some point in their life, even to the point where they act on that attraction and actually have sex with their own gender. As far as anyone can tell this is entirely psychological, and no amount of genetic engineering will get rid of it. So, in a society where there is no taboo against homosexuality and people feel freely able to express same sex desire and were doing so (similar to the society in ancient Greece/Rome), would there really be much point of seeking to get rid of people who were that way inclined most of the time? I can’t see logically how you could argue the removal of gays in a society that tolerates or affirms same sex desire in people who are predominantly gay.

2b - I think your analogy between curing gayness and curing deafness is actually quite valid. You could argue that if we could cure gayness the only reason people would want to keep it is because they think it’s presence “adds something” to humanity in general. The same argument is effectively being made by the deaf community because they believe the community and shared identity that being deaf confers on someone ultimately outweighs the disability it causes (the same applies for genetic dwarfs etc). Personally I don’t think this holds, as I believe that it’s the child’s has a right to a happy and fulfilling life that is paramount, I don’t think parents have a right to a child that suits their expectations (to take that argument further down the line we’d be condoning the mass breeding of blond, beautiful children who were physically perfect a la Nazi eugenics). I don’t actually think that it’s right for two parents to knowingly and actively make their child deaf to suit them, but (given what I’ve said in my response to 2 above) I don’t think the same argument can be applied to a gay child as gayness has no inherent detriment (people’s mistreatment of gays not actually counting as an inherent detriment). I don’t think anyone can argue with a straight face the same for deafness, dwarfishness, cystic fibrosis, blindness etc.

3 is maybe the most interesting question on a personal level. I’m gay and I’ve often wondered that if one existed, would I take a pill that made me permanently straight? I don’t think I would actually, the massive increasing of my potential mates aside (from 10% of men to 95% of women), being gay has had a massive effect on who I am. Specifically the terrible time I had a teenager for being gay has made me into an extremely strong willed and assertive adult who takes no shit from anyone and knows exactly what he wants from life and gos and gets it - I don’t know many other people who are quite so driven for their own self fulfillment, and I would argue that I’m a lot happier with my life than a lot of straight people I know. Of course becoming straight now wouldn’t change any of that and I’d still be the same person, but I like who I am, including my gayness. It would rule out me being able to go to some rocking fetish/sex clubs for a start, and I’d have to embark on a very expensive replacement of my porn collection too (and, come to think of it, some of my wardrobe). It would also have a big impact on a lot of my friendships, especially with my female and gay male friends who naturally would start to think of me and treat me differently. I wouldn’t want that. That said there are a lot of gay men and women who would jump at the chance of becoming straight, and I would have to respect their wishes to do that if it’s what they really wanted. Saying that I would have to question the cause of such unhappiness in anyone who was gay and I bet that 99.9% of the time it’s due to incompatability between the religion they were brought up with and their sexuality, or because their family doesn’t accept them. Neither of these are about their sexuality per se, and more about how others treat them (which wouldn’t be an issue if gays were treated the same as straights).

4 isn’t really an issue of ethics as it doesn’t have any lasting consequences, so it’s less should and more would. I certainly would like to experience being straight for a short period of time to know what it’s like (I’d be interested to know what my female type would be and if it was equivalent to my male type) and as part of that I’d look to have sex with a woman to have experienced it. I know quite a few sraight men who I think would be open to the idea of trying out pink if it was a one off, for the same reason (and in fact more men are starting to do this anyway as the taboo against homosexuality disappears - I’ve had sex with a few straight men who were looking to explore their same sex impulses and they didn’t need a gay pill to do it). As one of the posts above suggested, it might be useful for some holidays (“better stock up on some straight tablets for that trip to Saudi Arabia”).

So, from my perspective I wouldn’t support the screening out of homosexuality (in any shape or form) but would respect the wishes of someone who wanted to change their sexuality as an adult as long as they were doing it for valid reasons. If there were “sexuality swap” pills that lasted for a short period I’d be first in line to try them.

The biggest effect on our society would be a sudden dearth of evangelical pastors. :slight_smile:

I guess before I jump in I’d want to ask what the side effects might be. Is it realistic to expect that a fetus or baby could be made “un-gay” without any potential harm or side effects? And what about switching as adults-- would you be able to switch back with certainty? If so, how many times? I think the situation would be entirely different if you could only switch once, or if the “cure” was significantly less that 100% effective.

BTW, I think we did this debate a few years ago, but I can’t remember the thread title. Not that there’s anything wrong with doing it again, it just might be interesting to see how it went last time.

While it deals with complete sex change rather than sexuality change, there’s a Neil Gaiman short story called Changes that deals with the long-term societal effects of a similar medical breakthrough. Well worth reading.

I personally (Kinsey 3 male, currently monogamously straight) hope not - there’s nothing wrong with homosexuality, it’d be as wrong as any other eugenic measure. I’d hate to see homosexuality vanish.

As I said in the other thread on this topic, I’m pretty leery about tweaking genes, both because I value diversity in humans and because I worry about unintended consquences. I could see gene manipulation used to cure severe congenital defects, like severe retardation or organ malfunction, but I’d hate to see it used to “normalize” personality quirks, especially before the person is even born. Homosexuality to one side, I’d be opposed to “fixing” genes that could lead to, say, an ill-temper or an addictive personality. Who knows what other things those genes might be linked to?

Quite - “curing” any potential disposition to mental illness would also probably have an overall impact of lowering intelligence and levels of creativity, as there are often links betwen the two. Imagine a world where everyone was stable but thick and boring (sounds like the American mid-west).

Choosing to terminate a pregnancy because the fetus has some serious, or life-threatening abnormality is one thing, gayness is not such. If you strip gayness from social connotations it is not much worse than being left-handed.

I’d rather we change our views on homosexuality. I like a world with left-handed people (my grandfather, sister and possibly my daughter), and I like a world with gays.

And we like the world too. So there’s no reason we can’t all be friends, is there? :smiley:

ugly makes some good points. A lot of our emphasis on social acceptance seems to rest on ideas of choice. But things like this undermine that emphasis in at least two ways:

  1. Our supposedly all important identities, the things that make us, us are things that other people can choose FOR us, even before we come into existence.
  2. We can choose to change our identities after the fact, even things we might experience as fundamental on the everyday level.

I’ve personally never really liked to defend homosexuality on the basis of it being something someone couldn’t help, because that seems to concede right away the argument about whether ot not it is wrong period, which I refuse to concede.

We’d be competing with roughly twice as many people.

Not really, when you really fancy some salmon you tend not to eat kipper (to put it crudely).

I think oysters and snails is the proper analogy. :slight_smile: