If you didn't hate Hallburton already...

[World_Eater]

@casdave

So they are effectively out of reach of the law ?

Yep, good 'ol “order 17”. Thanks Bremmer! :rolleyes:

[Stranger_On_A_Train]

@John Mace

If she had been an IBM employee in Germany, and she was raped by other Americans, also employees of IBM in Germany, what would be her legal recourse in the US?

If (analogous to what has been alleged of KBR in Iraq) employees of IBM in their capacity as representatives of the company had accepted and destroyed evidence of a felony crime? That’s a question for our legal contingent, but I suspect that there are applicable federal statutes, especially if the company was responsible for transporting them across state lines. However, in Germany, there would also be standing German statutes and established court system. In Iraq, this would have occured under the Iraqi Interim government, and it was never made clear what statutes existed owning to the lack of a coherent transitional plan. The entire attack may qualify as extralegal.

@John Mace

The fact that these guys are immune from prosecution in Iraq is the problem. But then, how many would agree to go over there if they weren’t immune? It’s dangerous enough over they without having to worry about violating some Islamic code or another.

The U.S. military personnel are held accountable to the Uniform Code of Military Justice, and with a few notable exceptions, that is applied pretty consistently toward violations by military personnel. Well-paid private contractors, however, are pretty much free to act as they will without concern regarding legal reprisal, invoking memories of the murderous private mercenary armies of medieval Europe who often took much of their pay in spoils and land. The fact that they are essentially free to act outside of any legal authority whatsoever serves to create an environment where civilized behavior is neither encouraged nor beneficial.

Stranger

[Gfactor]

@A Monkey With a Gun

Who was the micro-cephalic genius who thought up giving KBR immunity from criminal prosecution?

Paul Bremer (immunity from Iraqui prosecution)

Robin Wright, "U.S. Immunity in Iraq Will go Beyond June 30, New York Times, June 24, 2004: http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A757-2004Jun23.html

The U.S. Congress (failure to extend U.S. jurisdiction).

How far does that immunity stretch?

Order 17: CPA-IRAQ.org: Homepage of The New Iraq - Information about the Iraqi Dinar

And see, Getting Away With Murder (in Iraq) - Factual Questions - Straight Dope Message Board

[armedmonkey]

@Gfactor

Paul Bremer (immunity from Iraqui prosecution)

Robin Wright, "U.S. Immunity in Iraq Will go Beyond June 30, New York Times, June 24, 2004: http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A757-2004Jun23.html

The U.S. Congress (failure to extend U.S. jurisdiction).

O.K., I get the immunity from Iraqi prosecution, but why are they immune from U.S. prosecution? Is it the “failure to extend jurisdiction” you hinted at? In the link I posted earlier, David Passaro is a civilian contractor who was tried and convicted in federal court for crimes committed in Afghanistan. Why can he be tried in federal court and the alleged rapists can’t?

[John_Mace]

@A Monkey With a Gun

I’m a little confused as to what the immunity entails, as well. I know the federal government does have jurisdiction over the crimes its contractors commit overseas as illustrated by this case: C.I.A. Contractor Guilty in Beating of Afghan. Mr. Pasarro was tried by a federal criminal court in Kentucky for crimes he committed in Afghanistan.

Perhaps part of the employment contract with the CIA is that you agree to be under US jurisdiction even when outside US territory. I’m just guessing here-- I really don’t know-- but it’s unclear to me that the two situations are the same.

[Gfactor]

@John Mace

Perhaps part of the employment contract with the CIA is that you agree to be under US jurisdiction even when outside US territory. I’m just guessing here-- I really don’t know-- but it’s unclear to me that the two situations are the same.

Like I said earlier, I don’t think it’s all that clear cut, but if anyone’s to blame for the lack of clarity, its Congress. You can blame lack of enforcement on the executive branch.

I don’t have time to go into detail just now, but this is a pretty even-handed discussion of the laws and their ambiguities. Dentons - Home

There’s a statuted called the Military Extraterritorial Jurisdiction Act (MEJA) http://www.pubklaw.com/hi/pl106-523.pdf that extends jurisdiction, but there are some ambiguities, http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m6052/is_2005_June/ai_n14935862/pg_4 and calls for amendment of the statute. The prevailing view seems to be that it doesn’t cover a lot of civilian contractors,

only one – David Passaro, a CIA contractor – has yet been convicted for detainee abuse. He received eight years of imprisonment for beating a detainee to death in Afghanistan. The government’s case against Passaro could go forward because the abuse occurred on an Army base, which is considered part of the territorial jurisdiction of the United States and thus covered by other US laws, not just MEJA.

http://hrw.org/english/docs/2007/10/02/usint17002.htm

And see, http://www.law.com/jsp/article.jsp?id=1193303020578 (discussing criminal jurisdiction issues from the blackwater case).

[Long_Time_First_Time]

FWIW -

As discussed on the Dan Abrams show last night -

There are several women filing civil suits against KMR alleging the same thing as the woman in the OP. When she started her site, many other women contacted her who are not suing due to their arbitration contracts. So it’s not an isolated event.

Americans do have legal protection “on the high seas” and other places not specifically on US soil. The lawyer interviewed called BS on the notion that she couldn’t sue successfully.

[madmonk28]

@Ghanima

Nothing but exaggeration. But it is no secret that women in Muslim countries are treated quite differently when it comes to sex.

I don’t know why I’m bothering BUT the Green Zone is not Iraq. It is a sealed off fortress in the middle of Baghdad. There don’t seem to be any Iraqis involved in the incident and the likely would be very few around the KBR compoung.

My experience is my cite, over 2 years in Iraq, I’m very familiar with the GZ (or pussy zone as we living in the real Baghdad called it). Please put aside whatever ill-conceived ideas you have about the culture of Iraq, Islam or Arabs as this story has nothing to do with any of that.

Also, Baghdad had been a fairly secular and liberal city when it came to gender issues prior to the invasion of Iraq in 2003, but there are only so many hours in the day and I just don’t have the energy for dealing with all the layers of stupid in your post.

[tagos]

@threemae

That’s a really asinine statement to make given that Saudi Arabia isn’t Iraq and this is clearly an example of how a Western secular society is perfectly capable of failing to adequately protect rape victims in the same manner that Saudi Arabia screwed up in sentencing that woman to 200 lashes.

You’ve made a bigoted ass of yourself.

Fuck yourself.

[Martiju]

@tagos

Fuck yourself.

A sound response that does loads to correct threemae’s opinion…! :rolleyes:

[Ghanima]

@madmonk28

I just don’t have the energy for dealing with all the layers of stupid in your post.

What layers of stupid are you referring to? Let’s see, first I said the story is sensational - that is true. Then I said I don’t know how much of the story is true - that is also true. Then I said I bet there are major revisions to the story - this is an educated guess on my part. I gave an example of what kind of revision might happen (without ever saying I believed it to be true.)

Then I made an admitted exaggeration (re: ankle flashing) which has been refuted with respect to the moral and political climate in the green zone.

Next I said I think there’s more to the story and I thought it might be too easy to join the lynch mob mentality - both of these statements are true.

Yep, layers and layers of stupid. One whole statement. Wow. :rolleyes:

I’m not saying the woman doesn’t deserve justice. I’m not saying current policy isn’t fucked up - it looks pretty fucked from here. I’m just saying I’m not going to start sharpening my pitchfork just yet.

[Gatopescado]

Gang raped and threatened? Sounds like she worked for Radio Shack.

[gonzomax]

Actually it is not against the law. Halliburton is not under any jurisdiction. They can do whatever they want (or think they can get away with in the face of public opinion).It would take a huge outcry to back them down.

[Zoe]

Maybe Halliburton Inc. will be remembered for its war crimes.

[tagos]

@Martiju

A sound response that does loads to correct threemae’s opinion…! :rolleyes:

I’m not in the slightest bit interested in correcting that opinion. Particularly after reading this.

Throw another woman on the barbie

After the invasion of Iraq, the US government claimed that women there had ‘new rights and new hopes’. In fact their lives have become immeasurably worse, with rapes, burnings and murders now a daily occurrence

They lie in the Sulaimaniyah hospital morgue in Iraqi Kurdistan, set out on white-tiled slabs. A few have been shot or strangled, some beaten to death, but most have been burned. One girl, a lock of hair falling across her half-closed eyes, could almost be on the point of falling asleep. Burns have stretched the skin on another young woman’s face into a fixed look of surprise.

These women are not casualties of battle. In fact, the cause of death is generally recorded as “accidental”, although their bodies often lie unclaimed by their families.

“It is getting worse, especially the burnings,” says Khanim Rahim Latif, the manager of Asuda, an Iraqi organisation based in Kurdistan that works to combat violence against women. “Just here in Sulaimaniyah, there were 400 cases of the burning of women last year.” Lack of electricity means that every house has a plentiful supply of oil, and she accepts that some cases may be accidents. But the nature and scale of the injuries suggest that most were deliberate, she says, handing me the morgue photographs of one young woman after another. Many of the bodies bear the unmistakable signs of having been subjected to intense heat.

“In many cases the woman is accused of adultery, or of a relationship before she is married, or the marriage is not sanctioned by the family,” Khanim says. Her husband, brother or another relative will kill her to restore their “honour”.

Islamic countries treat women like shit in general and now we’ve let it slip its leash in Iraq Islam is outdoing itself in barbarism.

[yojimbo]

@Martiju

A sound response that does loads to correct threemae’s opinion…! :rolleyes:

I think it’s quite obvious that he doesn’t give a flying fuck about threemae’s opinion

[tagos]

@yojimbo

I think it’s quite obvious that he doesn’t give a flying fuck about threemae’s opinion

Nothing against threemae but I’m sick and fucking tired of apologists for the vile things followers do in the name of this vile religion. And as far as I’m concerned anyone bleating on about how it’s just coincidence that a culture of treating women as sub-human just happens to grow up wherever Islam holds sway is an apologist.

I’m not interested in the mumbo jumbo, although the Koran is a pretty nasty piece of writing. Religions are what the religious do in its name.

[Siege]

Well, the story’s gone national now. It just turned up on Good Morning America, complete with the Justice Department’s dismissing the case because they didn’t have jurisdiction. They showed the type of shipping container the young woman said she was confined to. While I admit those shipping containers look bigger than my old apartment, she said she was locked in and guarded. As any number of historical figures could tell yoy, a cell may be luxurious, but if you’re under guard and not allowed to leave (apologies if I misread the situation), it’s still a cell.

[Gala_Matrix_Fire]

@tagos

Nothing against threemae but I’m sick and fucking tired of apologists for the vile things followers do in the name of this vile religion. And as far as I’m concerned anyone bleating on about how it’s just coincidence that a culture of treating women as sub-human just happens to grow up wherever Islam holds sway is an apologist.

I’m not interested in the mumbo jumbo, although the Koran is a pretty nasty piece of writing. Religions are what the religious do in its name.

Still. American employees rape and sodomize an American in an American compound, and somehow we need to work in a slam against Islam? Why not slam Christianity, which is most likely the dominant religion among the people concerned with this event? Or toss in a slam against capitalism?
“Stinkin’ capitalist American swine. Always raping and sodomizing everyone, then locking them up and denying them food and water. I wish every one of them wouuld die a horrible death. Why can’t they be more like their Jesus?”

[Steve_MB]

@Martin Hyde

I’m still waiting for a cite on people being killed for flashing a little ankle. Do you know that the “at least 40 women” were killed to the last for flashing a little ankle? Or do you suppose there are lots of violations of Islamic dress code and your source made no specific mention of what ones lead to the murders.

Evasion through literal interpretation of an obviously figurative phrase (“flashing a little ankle”) and an apologia for depraved barbarians, all in three sentences. How very efficient of you.