In this stroy from the Guardian, we are told that:
Let’s for a moment ignore the appalling nature of these crimes. I highly doubt that anyone on this board will suggest that such treatment is in line with our “mission” in Iraq. Comments about the treatment can be directed to this thread in the Pit.
I am more concerned about this line in the article:
Is this, finally, the end to grand experiment in the privatization of war that has been our misadventure in Iraq? Can anyone here continue to justify allowing individual who are under no recognizable legal jurisdiction perform military related tasks? I can see contracting out food service, janitorial services, and technology infrastructure services… but interrogation? WTF???
Creepy… but provinding interrogators has long been a US tradition. Not sure if the ones sent to Latin America in the 70’s were CIA or freelancers… probably CIA.
I bet all of them are former CIA, FBI or Military anyway... so their professionalism might not be questionable... but their legitimacy sure is.
Undoubtedly true. And the rules in covert ops have always been a bit murky. And given our lovely new Ambassador to Iraq, our experiences with such in Central America may have more bearing than we would like.
However, this is a case where we are acting as the government of the nation of Iraq. Not only are we responsible for the actions of every soldier and civilian representative of the DoD, we are also responsible for the well-being of every single Iraqi citizen.
So, who should have jurisdiction? To my mind, the contractors involved should be placed in front of an Iraqi court, and placed in the general population of the Abu Ghraib if found guilty through a fair and impartial trial. It seems the only thing just and fair.
For the soldiers who were following orders, I am slightly torn. They deserve some consideration of the fact that they are expected to obey orders from their superiors and that there are legal ramifications to their refusal to do so. However, they also have the capacity to refuse an illegal order, and forcing prisoners to simulate fallatio on each other should pretty clearly be illegal to anyone. So I guess I would be OK with them being subject to military justice, but they had better be staying at Hotel Leavenworth for a long, long time.
They didn’t seem under duress when they were beaming back at the camera giving the thumbs up sign while beside them a human being was being humiliated.
Yes. And I just saw the pictures. No duress there. I make absolutely no plea for mercy on these miserable fucks. I just wonder about the practical question of jurisdiction.
The mercs are pretty much immune to consequences here. They’re not subject to the military justice system (I’ve said before that they should be), they’re not subject to American criminal courts because they’re not in America, and while they’re theoretically subject to Iraqi law, there’s no Iraqi court system to charge or try them.
Seems like we should detain such people until there’s a legitimate Iraqi authority to hand them over to.
I understood from older articles that these mercs and contractors are subject to the laws of the states they were contracted in… I don’t think they will be benefitted from legal limbo… well unless they go to GITMO.
As for the soldiers… it was only a matter of time before this started. They are young and not particularly bright men. Add to that the notion of the US being superior and that Iraq is the enemy… that americans are morally, militarily and religiously superior to Iraqis and it was bound to happen. IMHO.
I say punish their superiors for letting 'em loose like that. Punishing young punks ONLY sounds like scapegoating.
Not sure I follow your meaning here. So you are suggesting that they are subject to Iraqi courts (if and when they exist)?
You are really hurting your argument with statements like that. The men and women in the army are no smarter/stupider than the men and women in any other line of work. They are young however, and you are playing with fire whenever you send immature boys and girls to have power over life and death of another. The ease of moulding their minds to a dangerous mindset I believe is the real reason we send our children off to die instead of ourselves.
Yes. All the way up the line. All the way up to those who embarked on this adventure with no planning for the aftermath.
reminds me of :-
“If any question why we died, tell them, because our fathers lied”
Rudyard Kipling
(perhaps the bitterest lines ever written, his only son fell in WWI)
But our soldiers are HEROES! All of them! Something like this CAN’T happen in America!
The saddest part of this whole thing - and the acts themselves are saddening beyond thought - is the lack of coverage in the media. I mean, what the hell are they there for? It is outrageous that something like this can happen and get no media play, and is relegated to those anti-war non-patriotic whackos who can’t be trusted. Close your eyes, America, and it will go away.
Sorry flight, I did a search for the name of the prison to see if there was a previous thread, so I guess I missed your thread :smack: . You had a better OP, too.
I remember reading that security contractors would be subject to Illinois law if they were contracted there... or Virginia law... etc.. I didn't understand the logic of it. I suppose the US states have more autonomy so the contracted have to follow one states law. Now don't know about "mercs". Remember that the USA doesn't allow for its soldiers to be judged by any other court than their own.
I know its not nice saying US soldiers aren't the brightest people... but the common grunt which obviously are some of those in the photos aren't the smartest people. Americans USUALLY seek higher paying jobs if they can... Pat Tillman excepted. The US military are much more demanding than they used to be... but it still attracts SOME limited kinds of people, as would any military. Even if they aren't stupid... they are still 19-20 years old with guns and power. I considered myself stupid at 20 years of age... much more so than today. I just avoid doing the same stupid things of before... I manage new and creative stupids.
Like I said before... this was bound to happen. I just didn't think "abuse" would be this graphic and stupid. Maybe soldiers in Iraq are feeling a bit too free and lacking in supervision ?