If you whine about political correctness, you're a bigot

[FuriousGeorge]

@xenophon41

Well, scout’s honor on the listening part, but the helmet blocks out those spy waves from the IRS black helicopters, so no deal on that.
Well, if I’m following you right, you’re saying the same thing Debaser said and, I believe and assert, the same thing Ms. Gutierrez is saying. (Debaser said it just a tetch more succinctly. You and I both may need to work on that.)

In other words: “Spend the 30 seconds to explain the simple reference or to find an analog that IS universal between those particular classmates and move on with the lesson.” Yes?

Yes, that’s what you and she are asserting. I’m saying a) no it’s not thrity sconds unless you give five seconds to all the Vietnamese kids, and 5 seconds to all the Mexican kids and 5 seconds to the French kid. And then there is Cletus over in the corner eating paste… you will spend MUCH more than 30 seconds and derail the given lesson if you have to explain it all to every kid from this mulitcultural Benetton ad of classroms.

@xenophon41

This is where I need some help from you. What is your concern with the assumption-checking being asked of the teachers? What “cycles” are you talking about that are too many? -This is a serious question, and I in no way intend to demean your concern here. You seem to be envisioning some excessive iterations involved in this and I’m trying to understand where you and I differ in our respective visions.

In my understanding of the direction to be culturally sensitive (in an “awareness” sort way, not a mind-everybody’s-feelings sort of way), there is absolutely no concern at all about sharing cultural knowledge (unless that’s the particular class being given). The concern is to speak to the students in terms and using references that are understandable to all of them, and don’t assume your favored terms and references are ubiquitous just because they used to be.

[QUOTE=Portland Tribune]
Guitierrez, along with all of Portland Public Schools’ principals, will start the new school year off this week by drilling in on the language of “Courageous Conversations,” the district-wide equity training being implemented in every building in phases during the past few years.

Through intensive staff trainings, frequent staff meetings, classroom observations and other initiatives, the premise is that if educators can understand their own “white privilege,” then they can change their teaching practices to boost minority students’ performance.
[/QUOTE]

The entire article is about the principal setting up meetings and classes and reviewing lessons for every teacher on the staff for these type of insensitivities to “…change their teaching practices to boost minority students’ performance.” Time and money that could be spent IN the class actually teaching or towards supplies, books, more staff, etc.

The example used… and supported by Guitierrez…is the ancillary detail of the dreaded PB&J. I’m skeptical that this is a one-off misleading example and more prone to believe this is the example to set as a premise.

@xenophon41

I don’t think you’d get any argument from Ms. Gutierrez or her teachers (and definitely not from me) that the point is to deliver the lesson on communication and to develop those skills in the students. The example to be used is completely unimportant except in a single aspect: it must be usable to each student who is asked to use it. In that sense, the PB&J isn’t really a MacGuffin as it’s used in fiction: it’s more like a vehicle for the lesson. You wouldn’t give each student a canoe and tell them to paddle to the other side of a pond without making sure all of the canoes float.

But see this is the piece you may be missing that I am seeing. Whether it be a Vietnamese child with no exposure to PB, jelly, bread, or butter knives or it be Cletus, who’s instructions homework reads 1.) Eet Paist. Those are valid and valuable to the lesson. Not knowing how to perform the action is JUST as valuable by showing how things can go awry. They aren’t being graded on the accuracy or history of or cutural knowledge of sandwiches. They are LEARNING how things can go awry. Being wrong or unexposed is absolutely as valuable as being the one kid in class with all the answers. We are teaching, not grading.

[Debaser]

@xenophon41

This has nothing at all to do with “celebrating diversity”. If you’re seeing it that way, you’re not following it. Gutierrez is not speaking liberal pinko peace and love theory here; she’s speaking hard-nosed educational pragmatism.

Where are you getting this from? Is there another article about this besides the one Bricker posted on page 2?

From the article:

Take the peanut butter sandwich, a seemingly innocent example a teacher used in a lesson last school year.

“What about Somali or Hispanic students, who might not eat sandwiches?” says Gutierrez, principal at Harvey Scott K-8 School, a diverse school of 500 students in Northeast Portland’s Cully neighborhood.

“Another way would be to say: ‘Americans eat peanut butter and jelly, do you have anything like that?’ Let them tell you. Maybe they eat torta. Or pita.”

Through intensive staff trainings, frequent staff meetings, classroom observations and other initiatives, the premise is that if educators can understand their own “white privilege,” then they can change their teaching practices to boost minority students’ performance.

Like many if not all of PPS’ leaders, Gutierrez has gone through California-based consultant Glenn Singleton’s “Coaching for Educational Equity,” a weeklong seminar on race and how it affects life; she’s also become an “affiliate,” certified to teach the equity curriculum; and she serves on the district’s administrative committee to address systematic racism, a group that meets every other week.

She’s so motivated to see growth that she’s adopted a new school vision: to be an “academic beacon” for Northeast Portland, where students achieve at high academic levels in two languages.

I’m not seeing a lot of hard-nosed educational pragmatism. I’m seeing political correctness run amok. The time and energy being spent making teachers feel guilty about their white privilege would be better spent on other things like training them to be better teachers.

You are making some good points about how awareness by teachers of different backgrounds could help them in the classroom. But that’s not at all how the article comes across. Did I miss another cite that explains this better?

[magellan01]

@Debaser

This is where you lose me. “Knowing what a PB&J is” in no way is equivalent to “professional discipline or unusual interest”.

If I show up at a convention of surgeons I won’t be able to follow many conversations since I don’t have an MD and the lingo will be lost on me. I should expect that, and that’s OK. If a surgeon at that conference suggested not using any acronyms to accommodate me that would be misguided.

Similarly, if any kid shows up to class and doesn’t know what a PB&J is they should expect to be confused. They should feel a certain pressure to Americanize. Bending over backwards to accommodate them goes beyond celebrating diversity and into the absurd. The PB&J is one example, there are many others. We don’t need voting forms in 40 languages. If you don’t speak English you shouldn’t be voting. If you are so out of touch with American culture you don’t know what a PB&J is you should expect to miss lots of references in the classroom and elsewhere until you learn the culture.

This isn’t a bad thing. The faster people can assimilate into the culture here the better of they will be. The better off we all will be, in fact.

Well said.

[xenophon41]

@Debaser

Did I miss another cite that explains this better?

No, and I think that’s part of the problem here. I’m trying to interpret the article without inserting things not mentioned in this rather short and shitty article. But I bring my own set of biases here, so I can’t be sure I’m interpreting it right either.

It’s not surprising how we can read the same things in that article and interpet them completely differently.

Collectively, you two quoted the following passages, along with a passage I quoted above:

Like many if not all of PPS’ leaders, Gutierrez has gone through California-based consultant Glenn Singleton’s “Coaching for Educational Equity,” a weeklong seminar on race and how it affects life; she’s also become an “affiliate,” certified to teach the equity curriculum; and she serves on the district’s administrative committee to address systematic racism, a group that meets every other week.

She’s so motivated to see growth that she’s adopted a new school vision: to be an “academic beacon” for Northeast Portland, where students achieve at high academic levels in two languages.

and

Guitierrez, along with all of Portland Public Schools’ principals, will start the new school year off this week by drilling in on the language of “Courageous Conversations,” the district-wide equity training being implemented in every building in phases during the past few years.

Through intensive staff trainings, frequent staff meetings, classroom observations and other initiatives, the premise is that if educators can understand their own “white privilege,” then they can change their teaching practices to boost minority students’ performance.

These passages talk about understanding “white privilege” and “systemic racism”, a school vision focused on “[achieving] at high academic levels in two languages” along with “[changing] teaching practices to boost minority students’ performance.”

Debaser sees all this as “making teachers feel guilty about their ‘white privilege’”, at the cost (in some unstated manner) of making them better teachers.

I’m wondering where the impression comes from that a) the training given the teachers is focused on guilt in any way, and b) training, meetings and classroom observations aren’t part of ‘making better teachers.’ If you’re inclined to see any acknowledgement of systemic bias as a guilt-trip, or to see any training focused on equity issues as something distinct and separate from other professional training, then I guess you can make those assumptions, but they are assumptions and are not supported by the cited article.

Furious George sees some requirement to explore each student’s cultural milieu when explaining each example used in any lesson. I just don’t see that anywhere in the article, and I doubt it’s actually the case just because, as you rightly perceive, it would not be workable in a time constrained class structure, and no one knows those constraints better than teachers, including those pushing this agenda. FG also, like Debaser sees the effort as detracting from school improvement instead of being part and parcel.

I think we’re each bringing our own prejudgements to these questions. I’m trying to base my understanding on what’s directly quoted and described in the article, on my understanding of the idea of systemic or institutionalized racism, and on the comment posted to the article by a Portland area teacher I cited earlier in the thread.

[magellan01]

@xenophon41

In other words: “Spend the 30 seconds to explain the simple reference or to find an analog that IS universal between those particular classmates and move on with the lesson.” Yes?

How about this: we assume that kids understand some very basic things and if they don’t they raise their hand and ask a question. And then the teacher takes the 30 seconds to explain. Otherwise, how do you know ahead of time that some kid will need something explained?

[magellan01]

And just for the record, I like to commend the OP for putting forth one of the most dumb-fuck propositions. He outdid himself in dumbfuckness. And that’s not small feat.

[xenophon41]

I don’t know if any of our resident educators are willing to step into this discussion, and I’m not going to IM anyone about it. But it would be nice to get someone with more intimate knowledge of the subject to comment.

If my interpretation is off base, and it’s all an exercise in guilting or handwringing, I’ll gladly yield to better citations of same. I’m just not seeing that, and I think it’s germane to the thread topic whether the less charitable interpretations or mine or neither are kneejerk misapprehensions.

So just in case a vanity search might help, I know that Manda Jo and Left Hand of Dorkness are American teachers. I recall several more, but can’t quite recall usernames at this time.

[FuriousGeorge]

@xenophon41

No, and I think that’s part of the problem here. I’m trying to interpret the article without inserting things not mentioned in this rather short and shitty article. But I bring my own set of biases here, so I can’t be sure I’m interpreting it right either.

It’s not surprising how we can read the same things in that article and interpet them completely differently.

Furious George sees some requirement to explore each student’s cultural milieu when explaining each example used in any lesson. I just don’t see that anywhere in the article, and I doubt it’s actually the case just because, as you rightly perceive, it would not be workable in a time constrained class structure, and no one knows those constraints better than teachers, including those pushing this agenda. FG also, like Debaser sees the effort as detracting from school improvement instead of being part and parcel.

[QUOTE=Portland Tribune]
“What about Somali or Hispanic students, who might not eat sandwiches?” says Gutierrez, principal at Harvey Scott K-8 School, a diverse school of 500 students in Northeast Portland’s Cully neighborhood.

“Another way would be to say: ‘Americans eat peanut butter and jelly, do you have anything like that?’ Let them tell you. Maybe they eat torta. Or pita.”
[/QUOTE]

From here. The principal has set up a program to “understand their own “white privilege,” then they can change their teaching practices to boost minority students’ performance.” Are we saying we are only considering the Somalis and Hispanics in the diverse school of 500 students? And only when it comes to American style sandwiches? I don’t beleive that. This is one example from what I believe to be the prinicipal’s overarching philosophy. The teachers must review each lesson of each subject to meet this philosophy.

This, to me, takes away from and derails the actual lesson(s) being taught. Which is not to explore the various sandwiches of various cultures, but to express oneself clearly (obviously I was sick that day of school). And, again, this is one example from an overarching philosphy for all teachers of all subjects.

Can we have a day or a lesson where we talk about sandwiches of the world? Sure, but don’t feel the need to take away from the important lesson(s) being taught for fear of ostracizing, offending or damaging the psyche of a child who doesn’t know what a sandwich is. I think that is where the hand wringing comes in.

[xenophon41]

Teacher (thinking to herself): My lesson plan calls for a PB&J as an example, but I know some of these kids don’t eat typical American food at home and might not be familiar… Hmm.

Teacher (to class): “OK kids, we’re all going to write a short description of a food item we can make for ourselves, like a sandwich or a torta. It can be anything you eat that’s simple to make but involves more than one item put together. Does everyone have something in mind? Yes, Ossainou, you can write about -what did you say it was, lahoh and ghee? That would be great, just write about it like you’re describing it to someone who’s never made it.”

I don’t think cultural sensitivity takes any more time than other good teaching practices.

[FuriousGeorge]

@xenophon41

Teacher (thinking to herself): My lesson plan calls for a PB&J as an example, but I know some of these kids don’t eat typical American food at home and might not be familiar… Hmm.

Teacher (to class): “OK kids, we’re all going to write a short description of a food item we can make for ourselves, like a sandwich or a torta. It can be anything you eat that’s simple to make but involves more than one item put together. Does everyone have something in mind? Yes, Ossainou, you can write about -what did you say it was, lahoh and ghee? That would be great, just write about it like you’re describing it to someone who’s never made it.”

I don’t think cultural sensitivity takes any more time than other good teaching practices.

OK, so given this. How do you see the scenario going the next day? Here’s how it went for my kids (as told by them). Teacher brings in a set of plastic cutlery, a jar of Skippy, a jar of Smuckers and a loaf of bread. Teacher says “Let’s see how you did. Everyone find a partner and trade sets of instructions. Now try to follow the instructions exactly as written in front of you to make a PB&J”

In the above sceanrio we potentially get some version of this:

Cletus raises his paste stained hand, “Teacher, what’s lahoo? I certainly don’t see no jee. I cain’t do this. I got peen’t budder and jelli.”

Cletus is now derailed from the lesson of following instructions or understanding instructions for not having the item that thinstructions are asking for. Remember we have done this for every kid who either has no exposure to PB&J or simply wants to use the more “familiar” item because this is a scholl of 500 multicultural kids. You gotta have a baseline and if Ossainou doesn’t know PB&J, that’s ok. He can try to follow the instructions as they are written to show this is what happens when you don’t explain somethign clearly to someone who has never seen this stuff before…

[Fotheringay-Phipps]

If you ask me, too much of this type of sensitivity is a mistake because it encourages people to keep their separate ethnic identities instead of assimilating. And despite good intentions, that eventually increases people hating each other.

You look around the world, both today and throughout history, and you’ll see that groups of people with different ethnicities in the same country getting along with each other is very much the exception rather than the rule.

Most of the people now considered white-privileged Americans are descendants of people who were themselves despised immigrants when they came here. And the reason they are no longer despised immigrants is not because liberals triumphed in encouraging everyone to love everyone, but rather because they eventually assimilated into the American culture (offering their own contributions to that culture along the way). Had they kept their separate identities, there would be a lot more animosity than there is today, both from them towards other and from others towards them.

I agree with Xenophon that the white privilege in this country is fading, but I don’t see racial harmony increasing as a result. Separate ethnic identities seem to be getting reinforced, if anything, and racial animosity seems about the same or more.

[xenophon41]

@FuriousGeorge

OK, so given this. How do you see the scenario going the next day? Here’s how it went for my kids (as told by them). Teacher brings in a set of plastic cutlery, a jar of Skippy, a jar of Smuckers and a loaf of bread. Teacher says “Let’s see how you did. Everyone find a partner and trade sets of instructions. Now try to follow the instructions exactly as written in front of you to make a PB&J”

In the above sceanrio we potentially get some version of this:

Cletus raises his paste stained hand, “Teacher, what’s lahoo? I certainly don’t see no jee. I cain’t do this. I got peen’t budder and jelli.”

Cletus is now derailed from the lesson of following instructions or understanding instructions.

Poor Cletus.

Not to be flippant, but neither of us knows what the actual use of the PB&J example was in real life, so I’m just gonna say the teacher, knowing there are descriptions of various things other than PB&J sandwiches, and having had the chance to review all of the assignments chooses some method (construction paper stand-ins for flatbread, American white bread, and the other assorted bread analogs, plus empty jars labelled with the appropriate food names like ‘peanut butter’, ‘grape jelly’, ‘honey’, ‘shredded Venezuelan beaver cheese’, etc.) for the exchange that doesn’t rely on having each ingredient and doesn’t grade down the explainer or instruction follower for mispronunciations of exotic ingredients like pea nutbutterjelly sammich.

If Cletus struggles with it, she’ll deal with Cletus in the same way she has to deal with Cletus every damn day. (She’s secretly very happy whenever Cletus misses class for his chin strap adjustments.)

[FuriousGeorge]

@xenophon41

Poor Cletus.

Not to be flippant, but neither of us knows what the actual use of the PB&J example was in real life, so I’m just gonna say the teacher, knowing there are descriptions of various things other than PB&J sandwiches, and having had the chance to review all of the assignments chooses some method (construction paper stand-ins for flatbread, American white bread, and the other assorted bread analogs, plus empty jars labelled with the appropriate food names like ‘peanut butter’, ‘grape jelly’, ‘honey’, ‘shredded Venezuelan beaver cheese’, etc.) for the exchange that doesn’t rely on having each ingredient and doesn’t grade down the explainer or instruction follower for mispronunciations of exotic ingredients like pea nutbutterjelly sammich.

If Cletus struggles with it, she’ll deal with Cletus in the same way she has to deal with Cletus every damn day. (She’s secretly very happy whenever Cletus misses class for his chin strap adjustments.)

…and honestly. I think this is the difference. You are talkign about grading. I’m talking about learning. In this example, nobody is getting graded on the quality of hte instructions or the following of the instructions. It’s a participation lab, a learning exercise. As such, it’s pass/fail. You did it or you didn’t. Cletus gets the same pass grade for his “Eeet Paist” instructions as Jenny gets for her three page iPad storyboard with embedded videos on baking the bread from scratch and harvesting your own peanuts as Ossainou for his I don’t know what a PB&J is. But more importantly the lab shows they are all learning HOW things can be misinterpreted or whatnot from all the different sets of instructions from all the participants.

[xenophon41]

@FuriousGeorge

…and honestly. I think this is the difference. You are talkign about grading. I’m talking about learning.

How do you figure? I mentioned grading only because you had Cletus fumble about for the right words from Ousainou’s dish. And then I addressed the part about whether Cletus’ learning has been “derailed” here. And I’d say no more than usual. There are ways to deal with Cletus that’ll have to be used by the teacher whether she’s following the cultural sensitivity agenda or not.

In this example, nobody is getting graded on the quality of hte instructions or the following of the instructions. It’s a participation lab, a learning exercise. As such, it’s pass/fail. You did it or you didn’t. Cletus gets the same pass grade for his “Eeet Paist” instructions as Jenny gets for her three page iPad storyboard with embedded videos on baking the bread from scratch and harvesting your own peanuts as Ossainou for his I don’t know what a PB&J is. But more importantly the lab shows they are all learning HOW things can be misinterpreted or whatnot from all the different sets of instructions from all the participants.

So having foods that are unfamiliar to some of the class could actually be used to help the lesson. Yes? Now everyone gets to try and build something they’ve never encountered from flawed instructions! If it’s always PB&J you’re shortchanging the born-and-bred-in-Portland kids, because they’re gonna ignore the instructions anyway, having made the sandwich a hundred times in their own kitchens. (Also, ignoring instructions is part of the American way and I have it on good authority those immigrant kids need to assimilate.)

In any case, are we forgetting that the PB&J is just a MacGuffin in the overall discussion, as well as -presumably- the particular lesson? There are all kinds of scenarios where a cultural reference has more importance to understanding the lesson than this one, and there may be scenarios where a given reference is both necessary to the setup and completely irrelevant to the point of the activity.

It’s not my self-imposed job here to explore every learning scenario; I’m arguing for the utility of teaching kids from diverse backgrounds with a sensibility for that diversity.

[Stringbean]

@xenophon41

I have a theory. You think “that’s what the fucking sandwich is about” because of two, and only two things:

First, and most importantly, like Furious George and doorhinge, you’ve turned your brain off on the subject and made yourself into a fucking conditional moron. (With doorhinge, that condition includes almost every subject, but his congenital tragedy doesn’t separate you and FG from the category.)

Second, you’re fearful that the purity of your dominant subculture is under attack, that the mandated inclusion of other cultural, ethnic or religious experiences and the assertion of value and importance in those experiences is a threat to the continued privilege enjoyed by your subset of humanity.

And you’re right to envision that loss of privilege and dominance; its disappearance is inevitable, and good fucking riddance to it. But you have to make up and then do battle against little fantasy constructs that were never put forward by your targets -strawmen like “[the] notion of a PB&J reference being inappropriate in a classroom lesson” and your idea that the teachers or students want to avoid integration into the country rather than advance it more effectively. You need to torch those straw arguments because it so painfully stretches your underutilized empathy and so stings your over-inflated sense of entitlement to conceptualize the ideas behind the actual arguments long enough to deal with them on a rational basis.
I’m aware you’re going to deride my theory as an example of rampant left wing twaddle, while you scoff at my soft-headed liberal idiocy. I’ll leave you to it. Enjoy. I wish you longevity and health so you can observe the ongoing cultural changes with all of your senses unimpeded.

You belong among the children of a college campus. This kind of horse shit is a joke to adults.

[elucidator]

Dunno, Xeno, he may just be following the Prime Directive of the conservative mindset: different, therefore suspect. Personally, I don’t eat Middle Eastern food, it makes me feel awful.

[FuriousGeorge]

@elucidator

Dunno, Xeno, he may just be following the Prime Directive of the conservative mindset: different, therefore suspect. Personally, I don’t eat Middle Eastern food, it makes me feel awful.

Sorry you had to wake from the slumber of your hash pipe fueled bender, 'luci, Maybe while you are scarfing down your bowl of hemp flavored granola to recharge you chakras, you can explain to me how the fuck you get any indication what my mindset is? I mean, I get the “You are either with us or agin us” attitude as exhibited by the typical Doper, but I expected better from you. Jesus, you sound like my father. He’s kinda stupid in that binary frame of mind, too.

[xenophon41]

@elucidator

Dunno, Xeno, he may just be following the Prime Directive of the conservative mindset: different, therefore suspect. Personally, I don’t eat Middle Eastern food, it makes me feel awful.

Hey, it was a theory, I ain’t married to it. I don’t think it’s terribly valid in most cases, and probably way off base in my recent interlocutors, but there are some… conservative lights of lower wattage in this thread to whom I suspect it applies just fine.

Also, the falafel joke again? I don’t mean to kibbeh here, but couldn’t you try just a bit harder? I mean, hummus-uming you burghuled the joke from someone else in the first place, (just couscous you could) but I’m not gonna freekeh out about it.

(On reflection, I think I may be interested in the PB&J question for the wrong reasons…)

[FuriousGeorge]

@xenophon41

How do you figure? I mentioned grading only because you had Cletus fumble about for the right words from Ousainou’s dish. And then I addressed the part about whether Cletus’ learning has been “derailed” here. And I’d say no more than usual. There are ways to deal with Cletus that’ll have to be used by the teacher whether she’s following the cultural sensitivity agenda or not.

OK, maybe my fault for making Cletus a character instead of a two dimensional other kid. I’ll own that. The important part of that was not fumbling for the right words, but more the not understanding how to proceed because the lesson is different with the other kids requirements to complete the task. It’s confusing and gets in the way of his learning. Ossainou can still learn form the lesson by being the “uncorrupted sample”. Someone who doesn’t come in with a preconceived notion of how a PB&J should go.

@xenophon41

So having foods that are unfamiliar to some of the class could actually be used to help the lesson. Yes? Now everyone gets to try and build something they’ve never encountered from flawed instructions! If it’s always PB&J you’re shortchanging the born-and-bred-in-Portland kids, because they’re gonna ignore the instructions anyway, having made the sandwich a hundred times in their own kitchens. (Also, ignoring instructions is part of the American way and I have it on good authority those immigrant kids need to assimilate.)

In any case, are we forgetting that the PB&J is just a MacGuffin in the overall discussion, as well as -presumably- the particular lesson? There are all kinds of scenarios where a cultural reference has more importance to understanding the lesson than this one, and there may be scenarios where a given reference is both necessary to the setup and completely irrelevant to the point of the activity.

It’s not my self-imposed job here to explore every learning scenario; I’m arguing for the utility of teaching kids from diverse backgrounds with a sensibility for that diversity.

…and I am saying that yes, there is a place for multiculturalism in the classroom. Absolutely, one hundred percent affirmatively agreed. However, it doesn’t have to be crammed, artificially, in to every single lesson where it doesn’t necessarily have a place to the distraction and the confusion of other students.

AND, most importantly to bring it back round to the OP, it doesn’t make me a bigot to think so.

[FuriousGeorge]

@xenophon41

Hey, it was a theory, I ain’t married to it. I don’t think it’s terribly valid in most cases, and probably way off base in my recent interlocutors, but there are some… conservative lights of lower wattage in this thread to whom I suspect it applies just fine.

Please don’t go this way. I’ve gained some respect for you here that I would prefer not to lose. For whatever that is worth.